[Randall Garrett]

Beaver,

Glad to offer input... :-)

Yeah, equipment like that is hard to find, especially from a small "niche" manufacturer. The really cool stuff seems to always be delayed in availability here in the US and/or they have no decent support network for repairs and other service items... :-( Usually, folks are at the mercy of the big box stores - that is, if they decide to start retailing them then you have access to a network for service, warranty stuff, etc. Hence, most people have to "settle" for what "the big boys" make - HP, Dell and the like...

That is not all bad, however, as we're starting to see some really compelling devices from the major players... :-) HP, Dell and Lenovo are now firmly "in the game" and their most recent products offer a lot. These would be their second generation devices and it shows. You'll find a bevy of their last generation devices now on sale and their newer models running just about what their previous generation devices ran. In almost every way, their new models are superior to the earlier ones. In some cases, they are slightly higher, but generally they also have larger screens/keyboards, etc. - sometimes as an option, sometimes expressed in the form of a different model... the same "guts" in a different case, the bigger screen "forcing" a larger footprint but also allowing a more nearly-full sized keyboard. Which way they go on this (option to same model or a different model number altogether) seems to be a matter of how their marketing departments want to position the device...

An example to the above comments can be seen in the HP line. The otherwise excellent (for what it is) HP 2133 Mini-Note PC (http://h40059.www4.hp.com/hp2133/) was running in the $399 - $599 range (still available at various locations in the $400 range with XP, the Linux versions are less) but it has been replaced with the HP Mini 1000 (http://tinyurl.com/6etnlx) with prices ranging from $400 (base config) to about $525 which adds 512 MB more to max out at 1 GB, the larger (10.2" vs. 8.9") screen, 60 GB drive (vs. 8 GB SSD), etc. Of note with HP is that they switched from using the Via CM7 CPU in the 2133 to using the Intel Atom with the 1000. The geeks among us argue whether or not this was a good move, but it is largely academic, especially since none of us really have a choice - they'll use what they want for their own reasons, LOL. Here is a link to a pretty good early "hands on" review of the Mini 1000 by a friend whom I know to have extensive background on various mobile devices. These guys tend to cover more "corridor warrior" and entertainment type things vs. how we might use them, but this has a pretty good overview, nonetheless: http://tinyurl.com/59u9x8

Dell, on the other hand, went the "new model" route to go to the larger screen, keyboard, etc. The Dell "Mini" line is shown here: http://tinyurl.com/5omtvz. Currently, they only show the Mini 9 which ranges from $399 to $449 (with XP - I assume nobody is trying to run appraisal apps under Linux, LOL), plus various options. They have already publicly announced/shown, however, the Mini 12 - one that some are saying rivals the MacBook Air for size, etc. http://tinyurl.com/6zax65

Lenovo, one of my faves, is also in the Netbook game with excellent products but their product line is somewhat blurry at present so it is hard to make direct comparisons here. Their "Ideapads" are essentially Netbooks but their current line shows mostly last generation stuff. They have announced new stuff but it'll probably be about a month or so before their marketing departments coalesces things to represent a comprehensive listing which can be directly compared to their competitors' offerings.

I understand your meaning on the RAM and CPU requirements relative to the software you are running. For a lot of applications, including Apex v3 and v4, 1 GB is more than sufficient for snappy performance. I've personally tested Apex v4 on an old '486-33 laptop with 256 MB RAM under Windows 2000 and it runs fine. Slow compared to a more modern CPU, but it comes nowhere close to taxing the CPU. The more germane issue is the bevy of applications that people expect to run. Most of the forms applications simply run better with more RAM. Let's not get into pointing fingers on which programs are "hogs" but I believe it is safe to say that most developers will tell you that they'd like to see people running 1GB at the minimum and would universally recommend 2 GB under XP. We recommend 3 GB for Vista, although in most cases 2 GB is fine unless you start throwing a lot at the machine with multiple apps running. The main problem with the currently shipping Atom processor is that is was designed for MID's - Mobile Internet Devices, not "real" computers. It has a very low power draw which is good for lightweight work, but it stumbles under a heavier load. it is also limited to 1 GB max. Even if you de-soldered the RAM and put in 2GB, the CPU would not recognize it. Even so, we'll see the various manufacturers rushing to stuff the Atom into larger Netbooks to try and capitalize on the market's desire for cheaper devices, despite the fact that they know people will push them to unrealistic loads. Still, I understand the lure - I have several myself... ;-) It is hard not to want to go this route. Just don't be too disappointed when a Netbook won't run as fast or do as much "heavy lifting" as a modern Core 2 device.

I have to run to a meeting, but when I get back, I'll touch on your other item - the difference(s) between a touch screen device and a "real" Tablet PC.

-Randall Garrett-
..Apex Software..

/end/

[Paul Isolda]

Randall, I would like to get your opinion on the most B4TB configuration for the X61. It seems this is the least expensive of the machines you recommend so I would like to look into it more. Thanks very much for your help!

[RSW]

Originally Posted by SunbeltAppraisals

Maybe someone has asked this already but how do you measure and hold the tablet?

Im worried about dropping or scratching the tablet on stucco.


www.sunbeltappraisals.com

I have a sholder bag that I put around my neck and off to the side. I just drop the tablet in it when I am taking a measurement and then pull it out when I want to write on it.

[Randall Garrett]

Paul,

Glad to help. Do you want me to post it here or via direct e-mail? If direct, just send me an email at the address spelled out below. In either case, let me know of any anticipated special considerations you might think would make a difference to your anticipated usage. Otherwise, I'll assume "typical" appraisal use and start with a base recommendation then add options in a more or less order of preference manner and let you pick and choose.

FWIW, I still like the X61 even though it is has been replaced by the X200 - especially since it is available for about what one might have typically paid for a vastly inferior device as little as 7 or 8 months ago. The Lenovo line is really built well and is a quality piece IMHO (I own several having outfitted a few employees with this model after extensive testing and comparisons.)

-Randall Garrett-
..Apex Software..

e-mail: rgarrett [at] apexwin [dot] com

/end/

[Dale Smalley]

I got the HP tablet about a year and a half ago and was not able to make it an effective field tool. Too heavy, Too slow, Bad in the sunlight..... I use it in the car for internet access but rarely for appraisal work. It did not work out for me as a dream quickly turned into a vista nightmear.

[OSU Beavers]

Originally Posted by Dale Smalley

I got the HP tablet about a year and a half ago and was not able to make it an effective field tool. Too heavy, Too slow, Bad in the sunlight..... I use it in the car for internet access but rarely for appraisal work. It did not work out for me as a dream quickly turned into a vista nightmear.

I looked at a $1000 HP at Costco and was not impressed either. I am about ready to get a $350 netbook with WinXP, buy a $60 9" car replacement touchscreen off ebay and solder my own tablet together!

[Randall Garrett]

Dale,

Which HP did you get?

Beaver,

Which model did you look at?

Again, this is an example of getting the right tool for the job. All HP "Tablets" are not the same. This is true for (most) other manufacturer's models, as well. Many models labeled "Tablet" do not comply with a critical component - namely the type of screen used, whether it be a proper indoor/outdoor type or whether is has an "active" vs. "touch" screen. Both active and touch types may have the TXP (Windows XP Tablet PC Edition) or even a version of Vista that supports pen/touch, but that does not make them fully "compliant" (my words here) with some important aspects of how some software works.

This issue of screens (viewability in outdoor conditions) and the "active pen" elements is at the heart of why I was dubious of the "netbook" solution earlier in this thread. Without going into a lot of detail (something I sometimes am ridiculed for, LOL) this sort of thing is a big factor in our selection of the recommended devices mentioned. Hence, I've tried to get closer to simply "cutting to the chase" and giving recommendations on models we have personal/professional experience with and those which our customers have reported success with. I can't fault those who want to experiment - heck, I do that a lot, LOL - just don't expect a device designed for one thing to shine when it is being used outside of its design parameters. Netbooks are designed for light weight work, not "heavy lifting" and they mostly do not have even "touch screens." Yes, some "oddball" units have added this as a way to distinguish themselves from the other run-of-the-mill devices, but these devices are not true Tablet PC's in the way which is (mostly) critical for what we believe most appraisers/inspectors (and the software they use) work... :-(

So, today, it boils down to this - if you want a Tablet PC that performs as expected and is readily available at "consumer" or "business" prices from one of the recognized brands - HP, Lenovo, Motion Computing, Fujitsu, etc., you need to be looking at:

Lenovo - the X61 Tablet PC or X200 Tablet PC. Note that Lenovo also has a non-Tablet "X61", so make sure you are looking at the right model. Here is the link to their page for their Tablet PC's: http://tinyurl.com/2texdx

HP - You will not find their true Tablet PC's on the "Home and Home Office" site. You need to go to the "Small & Medium Business" site. The tx2500 series shown on their Home site is a touch screen device and is not desirable for appraisal use outdoors. Here is the link to HP's "Ultalight Noetbook PCs" page: http://tinyurl.com/32zgvg Of the models listed there, we prefer the HP EliteBook 2730p which is an improvement over the earlier HP 2710p.

Motion Computing - These are "slate" computers vs. "convertibles." The most popular model for appraisers/inspectors is the LE1700 - http://tinyurl.com/23rz7q Their new "Ulta VAD" screen is the best available today at anywhere near affordable prices. Some people like the F5 model - http://tinyurl.com/2fumlt but we are a bit underwhelmed by it after thinking it had a lot of promise early on. Still, it works for a lot of people. YMMV.

Fujitsu - Fujitsu has been "in the biz" for a long time and they make fine products. They are sometimes difficult to get and work with, however - just our experience/observations here... Here is a link to their Tablet PCs page: http://tinyurl.com/8wx97 Note that they show slates, convertibles and others on various parts of their site. The T1010, for example, is a "touch screen" device. The most popular models are the T5010 convertible and the ST5111 slate. The T2020 is an improved version of the T2010, which I personally own. It is pretty light weigh and has great battery life. The screen is amazing indoors and "adequate" outdoors - I don't like the "glossy" treatment due to reflections, etc.

Hope this info helps!

-Randall Garrett-
..Apex Software..

/end/

[OSU Beavers]

Sounds like I have much to consider before buying. I will get the model number from Costco on Saturday. From the youtube vids the x61 Tablet looks too big for fieldwork.

I understand that these high end models may be worth the $2000 price, but I can't afford to lose that much from one drop. All I need is an electronic clipboard so I don't have to write down data then reenter it. The only Tablet functions I need are handwriting recognitiion for notes and some way to draw the sketch using Apex3. How does field drawing a sketch work? I figure draw a direction line then write the distance or tap and drag like using a mouse.

[Randall Garrett]

Beaver,

I looked on the Costco site and could not find an HP tablet shown, but I am guessing you are looking at the HP tz2500 as it closely matches up in terms of the price you mentioned ($900 base - $1,100 recommended configuration - http://tinyurl.com/5lp8eb) Assuming this is the model you are referring to, the reference to the X61 being too big for fieldwork is a bit off IMHO. The tx2500z has a 12.1" screen and weighs approx. 4.6 lbs. The X61 has a 12.1" screen and weighs under 4 lbs. The tx2500z has a touch screen where the X61 has the preferred "active pen" screen - they work very differently. So, the X61 has the same size screen (and is physically a bit smaller), plus it weighs significantly less - enough to feel when you are traversing the subject. Heft the tx2500z and keep this in mind.

FWIW, the X61 is running about $1,350 in base trim these days... :-) and we always recommend purchasing their ThinkPad Protection (essentially "drop insurance") which runs a couple of hundred for 2 (?) years... if you look on Lenovo's site, you'll also find a number of new X61's Tablets in the $950 - $1,300 range, depending on whether they were cancelled units (since the X200 was announced) or refurbs. Picking are slim and check your options carefully...

Either way you go, I highly recommend getting MS OneNote 2007 for general scribbling and doodling. It is a $20 option when purchasing the X61 but runs a bit more when purchased over the counter.

FWIW, Apex v3 is not a tablet friendly program - it was written for mouse and keyboard. Our Tablet PC program is Nexus and was written for "active pens." There is an option to enable some "touch" capability, but it is not tweaked for that as by far, the preferred interface with appraisers using "tablets" is active pen, not touch.

We have a much older program written for touch/tablets, called MobileSketch Touch/Tablet ("MSTT") but we've not sold it in a number of years. The v2 version of that program was a direct "port" of MSP - MobileSketch for Pocket PCs, but it was replaced with MSTT v3 which was simply another version of Apex v3 with some Touch/Tablet enhancements - mainly a special on-screen "key pad" with commands like arrow keys, "Auto-Close", "Pop", etc. It was written especially for UMPC's when they first came out as we thought they might be "the next big thing", but when those turned out to be so disappointing, it was pretty much replaced by Nexus for active pen type Tablet PCs. I can send some links to videos if you'd like.

Hope this helps!

-Randall Garrett-
..Apex Software..

/end/

[Dale Smalley]

I have the Hp Pavilion tx1220us with the swivel tablet screen.