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  #1  
Old 06-18-2010, 01:00 PM
Andrew Urbanek Andrew Urbanek is offline
 
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Default FHA & the Stove issue

I see now that there are statements being made that a stove is not required for FHA funding, but I have one question.

How exactly is one supposed to certify and verify that all of the mechanical, electrical, plumbing and water systems are functional for a safe and sanitary environment if the proper outlets, appliances and instruments are not tested?
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  #2  
Old 06-18-2010, 01:04 PM
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Mr Rex Mr Rex is offline
 
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Stick you finger in the socket.
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Old 06-18-2010, 01:14 PM
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How are you going to test a stove for functionality if there is no stove?

There are MPR (4910.1) and there are valuation protocols (Appendix D to 4150.2). The protocols tell you how to inspect, test and value under the MPRs.

Quote:
Check mechanical, plumbing and electrical systems in the subject property to ensure that they are in proper working order. This examination entails turning on the applicable systems and observing their performance. If any conditions exist that would affect the health or safety of the occupants, condition the appraisal on the repair or alteration of the condition” and/or a “required inspection.” The following is not an all-inclusive list, but a listing of the more common readily observable property deficiencies.

Electrical System
• Examine the electrical system to ensure that there is no visible frayed wiring, or exposed wires in living areas and note if the amperage appears adequate for the property.
• Operate a representative number of lighting fixtures, switches and receptacles inside the house, garage and on the exterior walls and note any deficiencies. If the appliances present at the time of the inspection do not appear to be reasonable (undersized), determine if there is adequate amperage to run “standard” appliances, as per local code.
The appraiser is not required to insert any tool, probe or testing device inside the panels or to dismantle any electrical device or control.

Plumbing System
• Flush the toilets and turn on a representative number of faucets to determine that the plumbing system is intact, that it does not emit foul odors, that faucets function appropriately, that both cold and hot water run and that there is no readily observable evidence of leaks or structural damage under fixtures.
• Turn on several cold water faucets in the house to check water pressure and flow. Flushing a toilet at the same time will also reveal any weaknesses in water pressure.
• If the property has a septic system, examine it for any signs of failure or surface evidence of malfunction.
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Old 06-18-2010, 02:20 PM
Lost Cause Lost Cause is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Rex
Stick you finger in the socket.
I guess X is right; it's right there in the protocol Greg quoted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appendix D to 4150.2
Check mechanical, plumbing and electrical systems in the subject property to ensure that they are in proper working order. This examination entails turning on the applicable systems and observing their performance. If any conditions exist that would affect the health or safety of the occupants, condition the appraisal on the repair or alteration of the condition” and/or a “required inspection.” The following is not an all-inclusive list, but a listing of the more common readily observable property deficiencies.

Electrical System
• Examine the electrical system to ensure that there is no visible frayed wiring, or exposed wires in living areas and note if the amperage appears adequate for the property.
• Operate a representative number of lighting fixtures, switches and receptacles inside the house, garage and on the exterior walls and note any deficiencies. If the appliances present at the time of the inspection do not appear to be reasonable (undersized), determine if there is adequate amperage to run “standard” appliances, as per local code.
The appraiser is required to insert his/her fingers should no appliances be present.

Plumbing System
• Flush the toilets and turn on a representative number of faucets to determine that the plumbing system is intact, that it does not emit foul odors, that faucets function appropriately, that both cold and hot water run and that there is no readily observable evidence of leaks or structural damage under fixtures.
• Turn on several cold water faucets in the house to check water pressure and flow. Flushing a toilet at the same time will also reveal any weaknesses in water pressure.
• If the property has a septic system, examine it for any signs of failure or surface evidence of malfunction.
  #5  
Old 06-18-2010, 02:31 PM
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:51 PM
Andrew Urbanek Andrew Urbanek is offline
 
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My question comes down to safety and liability. I am hearing a lot of arguments that say a stove is not needed, however, those arguments seem to center around the personal property / fixture argument of the stove and not the safety & electrical issue that a working range helps test.

I am talking about the electrical here, the stove runs on a 220V outlet which is different than everything else. It does not matter how many light switches you turn on or how many electrical outlets you stick your tongue in, because those fall under different standards and fire codes with the 220v versus the 175s.

If you test a property without properly testing the 220v then you open yourself up to unlimited liability. What if the new buyer of the house goes to install a stove after closing and it does not work and an electrician determines that the whole 220v outlet was a disaster and it needs $5,000 in repairs? Or, what if the new buyer installs a stove and it burns down the house and the fire investigator determines that the 220v was faulty? What will the appraiser that rubber stamped the "missing stove," situation say if God forbid one of those two scenarios happen?
  #7  
Old 06-18-2010, 03:57 PM
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Twice the volts = half the amps.

No big deal.
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  #8  
Old 06-18-2010, 04:52 PM
rzyzzy rzyzzy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Urbanek View Post
My question comes down to safety and liability. I am hearing a lot of arguments that say a stove is not needed, however, those arguments seem to center around the personal property / fixture argument of the stove and not the safety & electrical issue that a working range helps test.

I am talking about the electrical here, the stove runs on a 220V outlet which is different than everything else. It does not matter how many light switches you turn on or how many electrical outlets you stick your tongue in, because those fall under different standards and fire codes with the 220v versus the 175s.

If you test a property without properly testing the 220v then you open yourself up to unlimited liability. What if the new buyer of the house goes to install a stove after closing and it does not work and an electrician determines that the whole 220v outlet was a disaster and it needs $5,000 in repairs? Or, what if the new buyer installs a stove and it burns down the house and the fire investigator determines that the 220v was faulty? What will the appraiser that rubber stamped the "missing stove," situation say if God forbid one of those two scenarios happen?
There's lots of others to sue BEFORE they get to the appraiser in that situation. The government says you don't have to test, plain as day... don't test!

Don't forget that EVERYTHING on a stove isn't 220v - just turning on one burner could be only drawing on one "leg" of the 220 - are you turning the oven and all of the burners on at the same time?

What if you get sued because the oven works, but won't hit 400 degrees? You "tested" it right?

What if your harbor-freight electrical tester has a dead-short, and it causes the main panel to blow up when you stick the leads into the outlet, and sends shrapnel into a school-bus filled with children?

Call me oversensitive, but an FHA appraiser claimed a broken garage-door spring was a "safety hazard" and set in motion a chain of events that delayed closing on my home for an extra month.

Somehow, "protecting" me from that $79 repair was a "good" thing, but no one thought about the extra $1400 in RENT I had to pay.

Assuming all of your buyers are stupid and broke is kind of asinine.

FWIW, I didn't begin to nit-pick my appraisal until after that happened... Then I found lots of goodies...

Last edited by rzyzzy : 06-18-2010 at 05:05 PM.
  #9  
Old 06-18-2010, 05:17 PM
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I'd have made a repair condition for a broken garage door spring too.
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  #10  
Old 06-18-2010, 05:41 PM
rzyzzy rzyzzy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Boyd View Post
I'd have made a repair condition for a broken garage door spring too.
This is silly! - yes, it is possible if spring #2 breaks, while the door is opening, you might possibly be injured...

BUT

lots of doors have only ONE spring, and you never know when that spring is going to break, and the chance of injury is the same.

Noting the broken spring would have been fine - In fact, In my case it had already been repaired after the appraiser went through, but before I got the appraisal back.

The whole "send us a copy of the receipt, we'll send the appraiser back out, we lost your fax, we lost your fax, we lost your fax, you didn't need to come in with a copy, you could have FAXED it..." thing took a month...

Having been a homeowner who's had a couple of springs break, I know they usually break at 3am when everyone is asleep, and the only injury is the AHA! moment when the door won't open a few hours later.

"CYA" appraising won't work - you'll still get sued for that one thing you never thought of/ that likely isn't even logical anyway. Lawyer-logic is different and often non-existent.

Last edited by rzyzzy : 06-18-2010 at 05:48 PM.
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