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Growing weary of NC?

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Terrel L. Shields

Thread Starter
Elite Member
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
May 2, 2002
Professional Status
Certified General Appraiser
State
Arkansas
I know there are people who have grown weary of hearing about Tom's situation and the mess in N. Carolina. But I hope everyone understands that USPAP is an amorphous mass which will be shaped by such cases as Tom's. The courts, ultimately, (perhaps long after I am dead) will have to shape the entire document and USPAP will have to change with it.

Chinks have shown thru the shell. A Colorado court ruled that an appraiser can charge a contingent fee for tax appeals and it has stood up under appeal. That challenges USPAP up front. There will be many more cases where USPAP and the Regulators thereof will have to be reined in or given free rein to proceed.

Tom's case and the eventual outcomes (which likely won't be known before 2004) may have a very serious impact upon not only state regulations but perhaps upon the Appraisal Institute and the MAIs. Among the elder statesmen of the AI, the old time MAIs seen to be blessed with an undue number who seem to think that MAI stamped on their reports makes them untouchable. Among the more recent MAIs I know most seem to be quite competent and much less arrogant. I recall all too well a phone conversation I had many years ago when I was angerly denounced as an incompetent bozo by an MAI. I eventually obtained a copy of his report prepared on a chicken farm when he used sales up to 6 years old and ignored (actually without a doubt was unaware of) sales within a mile or two of the subject that had sold within a year. But he was an MAI. Am I supposed to bow towards Chicago?

The real test of honor for the Appraisal Institute will be whether they discipline the miscreants or make excuses.....

tls
 

Stephen J. Vertin MAI

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Professional Status
Certified General Appraiser
State
Illinois
Terry:

In Illinois we have a different breed of regulators. It is not the old boy MAI net work. It is a load of URAR form fillers who believe the only scope and purpose of an appraisal is FannieMae guidelines. Both networks are equally dangerous to the industry. Further, we have an organization called the Illinois Coalition of Appraisal Professionals (ICAP) whose hierarchy reads like the whose who for the Office of Banks and Real Estate (OBRE). They claim to be watching out for appraisers in Illinois. A liaison group between appraisers and government. But instead stab appraisers in the back by supporting a new vicarious liability rule. I received a call from the Joint Committee on Administrative Rules (JCAR) claiming ICAP sent a letter in support of 1455.250 (f). This rule basically states, any inaccuracies within appraisals are the appraisers liability. I have been told by two lawyers the wording means literally anything. This includes surveys, provided rent rolls, zoning maps, floodplain maps, any building sizes provided by public records, MLS, etc. These are accuracy's appraisers could not possibly have control of. How could any group who claims to be in support of appraisers load them down with this trash? It is irrational.

Our State appraisal board is a small unit in the banking division of regulations. In other words, the bankers rule appraisers. We need all the help and unity we can get among appraisal organization. Instead we have these guys sticking us in the backs every chance they get. I am so sick of these organizations taking our money and pi**ing all over us. As of late, I have never felt so cheated in my life by these jokers. How can AI seriously get involved when the same guys who they are coming up against regulate AI's lucrative educational criteria?

One thing you said that is absolutely correct and most fail to understand, if it will not fly in court, it is not going to happen. I am really interested in this law suit. Where did you hear about it? I have started collecting them from around the country. I am trying to stay abreast with a rapid number of new developments. I typically try to stay more subtle but the last few days have really open my eyes as to what is needed.

Steve Vertin
 

Austin

Elite Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Professional Status
Certified General Appraiser
State
Virginia
Terrell wrote:

“But I hope everyone understands that USPAP is an amorphous mass which will be shaped by such cases as Tom's. The courts, ultimately, (perhaps long after I am dead) will have to shape the entire document and USPAP will have to change with it.”
Terrell hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, the same can be said about the so-called accepted appraisal methods, another amorphous mass. The so called accepted appraisal methods have generally been discredited but unfortunately it will be long after we are all dead before anybody will admit it and get on the correct path given the pace of our system to deal with this type of systemic problem.

I remember in 1987, after the tax reform act of 1986 was passed. Our local AI chapter invited a speaker from a national accounting firm to explain what the act said and how we appraisers would be affected by it. The speaker went on for two hours, them some old MAI stood up and asked: “Now that you have told us what the 1986 tax reform act says, tell us what it means?” The reply was ominous: “I have no idea. We will have to wait until the courts interpret it.” By that he meant: After some poor innocent slob gets caught up in the legal IRS tax trap, expends his treasure on legal fees in court, then some un-elected judge with a political agenda decrees the legislative decision of what the tax law means, then and only then will we know what the tax law means.

Therein lies the dilemma of our democracy and system of due process. As John Brown said before he was hanged: “There is no redemption of sin without the shedding of blood.” By that I mean that our system is so slow that by the time the system gets around to fixing the problems, many innocent people will have paid for the abuses with their lives and fortunes, like Tom Hilderbrandt and many others. I have no doubt that Tom will be chewed up in the machinery of abuse as a sacrifice on the alter of stupidity and inefficiency. As many state appraisal boards have stated: “We don’t have the funds to expend on due process. Due process is just to darn expensive. ” It was my hope that we could avoid all of this by creating an organization like I envisioned FAIR to be to prevent things like this from happening by creating a power structure to stand up against these abusive practices thereby avoiding these unnecessary incidences of the shedding of innocent blood. So much for hopes. Maybe I should write a song in Tom Hilderbrandt’s honor entitled: “Old Tom Hilderbrandt is smoldering in the cold, cold, ground but the truth of his cause keeps marching on, and on, and on, and on.
 

USPAP Compliant

Elite Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
North Carolina
Yes I am weary and yet the more I learn about the NCAB the more interested I become in reform.

The NCAB will meet tomorrow (Tuesday 11/19/2002) at 9:00 am. I hope I can go but have been in constant pain for the last six weeks with a disc problem in by back. I am not sure I can stand a 7 hour drive. I am trying to find someone who wants to go that can share some driving time.

I deplore the fact that party politics has such an impact on board and commission appointments in NC. I fail to see why a person's party affiliation has anything at all to do with the appointmant process for any professional license board.

Having said that, we may be in for some changes and it AGAIN may well be based on party politics. It appears that the Republican Party will now have a majority in the NC House. We may very well have a new Speaker of the House who makes many of the board and commission appointments, including those for the NCAB.

While I am proud to be an active Republican I hope the new Speaker (if that in fact happens) WILL NOT let party politics influence his appointments. I sincerely hope that the best qualified people will be appointed to the NCAB and all other boards and commissions with no regard to race, creed, color, gender or political influence.
 
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Professional Status
General Public
State
North Carolina
Hello fellow forumites

Late braking news. After the agenda was mailed out regarding the meeting tomorrow, my attorney was notified that the NCAB wanted to take up my case, at least the recussal issues regarding Bart Bryson, MAI and Charles Hinnant, GAA, at Tuesdays meeting. (While I suspect that the board did not want anyone to know my case was on the agenda and that was the real reason for the late notification, I suspect I am just far too cynical for my own good. )

So, these recussal issues will be discussed at the meeting tomorrow. This should really be interesting, at the core of this is how honest and truthful are several board members and the legal counsel for the board.

I strongly encourage anyone that can come to be present. My case is scheduled to be heard sometime around 10:00 AM.

Regards

Tom Hildebrandt GAA
 

Don Clark

Elite Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
Virginia
All,

I sincerely believe that part of the problem is the total inefectiveness of the ASC as an oversight agency> I won't repeat it here, but if you are interested you can read my comments at

www.naifa.com/chat

Look in the USPAP Forum.

Bob, take care of that back. They do not get better with age. I have had one since 1963.

Don Clark, IFA
 
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Professional Status
General Public
State
North Carolina
Don

On the issue of poor oversight by the ASC, I agree.

Four (or gosh, five years ago) I asked the ASC to audit the NCAB, my specific gripe was the lack of std 3 reviews, a total failure of the NCAB to comply with the ethical requirements of USPAP.

Dennis Greene did the audit, and verbally said the board was wrong, but the powers in the ASC staff, notably the legal counsel said this is not a problem. The NCAB has been on a role ever since.

You need to come to the NCAB meweting tomorrow to see how deviouis and decietful the NCAB is in its prosecution, there is an appalling difference between what it says, and what it does. Had the ASC taken action fivbe years ago, this issue would have been resolved.

Regards

Tom Hildebrandt GAA
 

Stephen J. Vertin MAI

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Professional Status
Certified General Appraiser
State
Illinois
Tomorrow will be a pretty interesting day in Illinois also. I am driving to Springfield for the JCAR hearing on OBRE's administrative rule changes. Tom good luck. I will say a prayer. I hope you have the energy to post the events. If not, I hope Thursday. I will keep everyone posted on what happened in Springfield.

Steve Vertin
 
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Professional Status
General Public
State
North Carolina
The much awaited board hearing and decision relating to bias of Bart Bryson MAI and Charles Hinnant GAA was held today.

After Bart, the current chairman of the board, passed the gavel to the temporary chairman, the three previoulsy recused board members were asked to step down from the podium. We then heard the arguments regarding Barts recusal. The NCAB posiiton was that we had in January 2002 entered into an agreement agreeing to an ALJ, that three board members by name were to be absent from hearing the case and that the case would be returned to the NCAB following ALJ ruling, and that the "remaining sitting board members could hear the case". They stated in argument that we never raised an objection to Bart at the January meeting and had waived any right to objecting to Bart.

Our position was that we never anticipated Bart hearing the case because he had previoulsy recused himself at the Probable cause level and we had no reason to believe the board considered him eligible to hear the case because of his prior involvement. We were convinced this was the case in February 2002 when in deposition testimony, the board staff (the attorney, the investigators and the other states witness) met with Bart to discuss the strategy for testimony, witnesses and exhibits without giving us notice that Bart was meeting with the staff. You see under the law, the board has no requirement to advice the respondent when a board member is meeting with staff in a contested case but if the board member is not to adjudicate the matter, it is against the law to fail to notify the respondent if such a meeting is held with a member who could adjudicate the case.

Much to our surprise in September, when faced with quorum issues, all of a sudden the board feels it is ok to reinstate Bart on the board. Apparently the board believes that somehow, magically, Bart has been miraculoulsly cured of his violation of the law, and that the staff attorney does not have to follow the law by notifying the respondent (or his counsel) of such meetings. Bart had to know he was acting in a biased manner at these meetings, and the Board apparently feels that failures by staff counsel to comply with the law before the fact, can be forgiven if after the fact, they can trick someone into signing an agreement that the would not have signed had the board staff follow the law. We argued also that the honarable thing for Bart to do was what he intended to do, recuse hinmself after participating so closely with prosecution. After all, he did just that in a companion case, Bart chose not to do so. You can be the judge on this guys ethics.

On the Hinnant matter, The board staff argued that Charles had to hear the case because it is his duty, and that the board has no other way to adjudicate the case. They basically want the board to forget that they could, if they chose, to have the exceptions heard by an ALJ, or alternatively, do nothing and let the ALJ proposed ruling stand.

At any rate, the outcome was the same as I expected, I consider it a minor victory in that I it is one more item on appeal (clearly the board is intending to find me guilty of something, perhaps being a pest, ) to show how ludicrous the board is.

I should mention that the states star witness was a lawyer for the state attorney generals office who is the supervising attorney for the NCAB attorney. He argued that he fully disclosed who could and could not hear the case in January (contrary to my recollection on the matter, and I can name the board members, he could not remember their names and had to be prompted by the NCAB counsel. Essentially this authority on the law argues that the staff really did not have an obligation to advise the opposing party of meetings between board members and the prosecuting staff before they occur because you really do not know what might be discussed. These guys are really incredible, they basically say that the law is just sort of a thing to follow when it suits them. To hear these guys talk, you would think the law does not apply to the board, but only to those the board wishes to persecute.

At any rate, I will let others post on the other stuff that happened, and on what their opinions of this hearing showed them.

Regards

Tom Hildebrandt GAA
 
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