Weird dock situation

[J Grant]

ok another problem child assignment my thinking is the dock is personal property but wanted feedback from others. We have docks here that show up on public records as an in improvement and they belong to the house or town house ( typically waterfront houses ) These docks are real property

this is a Refinance appraisal -The subject townhouse is not waterfront, it is dry lot, however the community has a waterfront area and has docks available on the water that a resident can either buy or rent. This owner of townhouse owns a dock that he calls a "deeded dock". But the dock does not show up on public records as part of the property improvements. He failed to provide a "deed" for it. I asked him if the dock could be sold separate form the house. He said it could, but nobody does that, teh docks sell with the house . He thinks the dock is worth 100k. Well if it is personal property whatever it is worth does not go into the appraisal. ( I did not tell him that but told him I needed to research whether the dock would be included or not )

Other listings in community say " buyer has a right to purchase a dock. " One listing says "dock included "

Hate these kinds of assignments with a pushy owner who is going to complain if the dock is not included but since it can be sold separately, imo it is personal property - like a boat - but am open to others views on it.

 

[glenn walker]

Now since I have been disbarred for malpractice especially when dealing with Boat Docks and Private Water Stocks my Caveat is that each State has different water rights and each HOA or each water front development has different ways of conveying the use of these docks. *** BUT ** On refinance appraisal even if he has a deeded boat dock or agreement to use it he can always exclude it from a resale and keep it for himself or sell it separately to a guy who needs a dock but lives in a different house or condo. So you cannot give it a separate value as his boat dock is fully portable and transferable at anytime to another party. Also normally non-water front boat docks do not carry big premiums and my guess is in a resale he would be lucky to get half of his big number. Also pricing points of units or homes -as on million dollar plus properties someone may pay a $100K but not on a $300K to $400k property.

OK now you have a Refinance that has been over-inflated by X-$100,000 for an imaginary boat dock that he sells to His Uncle Jim Bob who lives in the same development the week after his refinance funds and closes . Now if he proves ownership you could maybe find other comps with owned boat docks but in a refinance as stated there is always the risk the dirt bag will not convey it when he sells it and so he just pocketed an-extra tax free $100K in his bank account.

This happened to me two years ago on a property that had private water stock that sells for between $25K to $35K a share- Each home comes with one share but my Subject had three shares which are needed if someone wants to build a pool they will need. OK So I do the appraisal and the seller my beautiful CPA charms me into why those water shared added another $50,000 to her $1.5 million home- I take the bait and add $50,000 on her refinance BUT three months later she sells it and I found out she only gave the new owner 1 share of stock and sold her two others for $50,000 cash to a local pool builder.

Ownership : In my area normally a HOA type operation will have agreements on which properties have docks that go with the property and those can be bought and sold by the owner and we even have brokers thats all they do is buy and sell them. BUT unless the owner has some deed-or provisions in his HOA CC & Rs then how would he even sell it or prove he owned it ? In Reality if he can provide nothing then how do you place a value on it or better yet how did he place a value on it ? What if some deplorable like me parks his boat in his dock who does he call to get me and my boat out ? he calls the Coast Guard or the Bay Police and they say show us proof of ownership or use. .

Some developments also have Memberships In this scenario the land, docks, structures, etc. are owned by an entity ( likely a corporation ). A buyer that purchases a slip receives a “membership certificate.” Although this certificate my look like a deed, it is merely a contract and does not convey any ownership of or easement over the land or docks.

 

[J Grant]

Now since I have been disbarred for malpractice especially when dealing with Boat Docks and Private Water Stocks my Caveat is that each State has different water rights and each HOA or each water front development has different ways of conveying the use of these docks. *** BUT ** On refinance appraisal even if he has a deeded boat dock or agreement to use it he can always exclude it from a resale and keep it for himself or sell it separately to a guy who needs a dock but lives in a different house or condo. So you cannot give it a separate value as his boat dock is fully portable and transferable at anytime to another party. Also normally non-water front boat docks do not carry big premiums and my guess is in a resale he would be lucky to get half of his big number. Also pricing points of units or homes -as on million dollar plus properties someone may pay a $100K but not on a $300K to $400k property.

OK now you have a Refinance that has been over-inflated by X-$100,000 for an imaginary boat dock that he sells to His Uncle Jim Bob who lives in the same development the week after his refinance funds and closes . Now if he proves ownership you could maybe find other comps with owned boat docks but in a refinance as stated there is always the risk the dirt bag will not convey it when he sells it and so he just pocketed an-extra tax free $100K in his bank account.

This happened to me two years ago on a property that had private water stock that sells for between $25K to $35K a share- Each home comes with one share but my Subject had three shares which are needed if someone wants to build a pool they will need. OK So I do the appraisal and the seller my beautiful CPA charms me into why those water shared added another $50,000 to her $1.5 million home- I take the bait and add $50,000 on her refinance BUT three months later she sells it and I found out she only gave the new owner 1 share of stock and sold her two others for $50,000 cash to a local pool builder.

Ownership : In my area normally a HOA type operation will have agreements on which properties have docks that go with the property and those can be bought and sold by the owner and we even have brokers thats all they do is buy and sell them. BUT unless the owner has some deed-or provisions in his HOA CC & Rs then how would he even sell it or prove he owned it ? In Reality if he can provide nothing then how do you place a value on it or better yet how did he place a value on it ? What if some deplorable like me parks his boat in his dock who does he call to get me and my boat out ? he calls the Coast Guard or the Bay Police and they say show us proof of ownership or use. .

Some developments also have Memberships In this scenario the land, docks, structures, etc. are owned by an entity ( likely a corporation ). A buyer that purchases a slip receives a “membership certificate.” Although this certificate my look like a deed, it is merely a contract and does not convey any ownership of or easement over the land or docks.

I agree!
will have to figure out how to explain it but re affirms my initial that the dock is personal property he might as well include the boat too lol

 

[glenn walker]

I agree!
will have to figure out how to explain it but re affirms my initial that the dock is personal property he might as well include the boat too lol

And he needs to provide the proof ownership-use agreement also some HOA have a Dock Payment included in the owners HOA Dues-Heck it may not be his dock or his boat just another Florida guy selling other peoples boat docks.

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

if the dock is not included but since it can be sold separately, imo it is personal property - like a boat - but am open to others views on it.

Here they are ID'd as personal property but show up on the assessor's records...really confusing. I value them from sales separately but the real issue here is the lot value. We have lots that are Lake view... sell about the same as lots that have frontage on a bluff (since you can't get to the water anyway). We have lakeside lots that are forbidden to build a dock. And we have lots that are "dockable" or have a dock. They are the most expensive lots.

I had a "lakeside" lot that actually was dry if the lake is low (not common) and it had a rail system to take the boat to the water (about 100' away) and so they cannot build a dock because there is no room to build a dock but just enough to launch a boat from the rail system. Pretty crude but value??? Gosh, hard to say.

 

[Zoe]

You need to dig a little bit more there. You need to know who owns the water rights that the dock is sitting on. It could easily be permanently attached to the ground. But who owns the water rights where it is sitting.

 

[Zoe]

The bank may have to file a different lien on the dock. It's possible. Do your due diligence and then talk to bank lawyer.

The bank will know how to secure a lien on it.

 

[DWiley]

This owner of townhouse owns a dock that he calls a "deeded dock".

Would a search of the deed records not show if the dock is actually deeded or not? My first step would be to search the deeds. Find the deed for the townhouse, then look for other deeds listing the same owner name. Caveat - deeds are pretty easy to search online in my market. Either way, I would not complete the appraisal until this could be resolved definitively, because assuming one way or another could lead to huge appraiser liability. Problem identification; identify the subject property and its relevant characteristics.

 

[Zoe]

Florida girl. LOL

You got this girl. Be careful. Title search will show something, but you can figure it out before that and notify the bank or your client. If it's a bank, they may have already run title search. Just ask them for copy.

 

[J Grant]

Would a search of the deed records not show if the dock is actually deeded or not? My first step would be to search the deeds. Find the deed for the townhouse, then look for other deeds listing the same owner name. Caveat - deeds are pretty easy to search online in my market. Either way, I would not complete the appraisal until this could be resolved definitively, because assuming one way or another could lead to huge appraiser liability. Problem identification; identify the subject property and its relevant characteristics.

I can try again, but so far I do not see it on a deed - public records tax card RPR have a dock recorded as an improvement when it is real property. Other oddball cases owners have given me a deed if the dock has a separte folio number and its own deed to be encumbered with mortgage . This owner did not do that. He used the term "deeded dock" in a recent listing , but a listing of subject back in 2017 said the dock could be leased or purchased. I contacted another RE agent on a similar listing and he said docks are purchased separately in that community as do other listings say it.

Some mystery quit claim deed last year from another party to owner....J

The house has been listed on and off the market multiple times in past 5 years both for sale and for rent _ why? Listed as recently as 3 months ago then "cancelled". Yeah right. raises a red flag imo - but still we are appraising it so moving on. -

The recent listing was above 800k ( so far, looks more in 600-700k range )... at inspection he tells me he "needs" 830 k and I tell him it does not work that way, I can not promise any value .then he told me he spent 300k on remodeling looks what was done more like 150k. Then he tells me the dock is worth 100k. Then he tells me a personal sob story why is getting a refi. OMG -

I would like to give assignment back at this point, though I can finish it, bring it in for $ OMV that it is supported , say that due to lack of evidence on a deed or real property tax card the dock is treated as personal property and if he is unhappy well..let him prove the dock is real property and deeded.