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Why Do Continuing Education Offerings Stink So Bad?

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Terrel L. Shields

Elite Member
Joined
May 2, 2002
Professional Status
Certified General Appraiser
State
Arkansas
Well, i have my own NSHO...

The cost of creating a class, a handbook, slides or handouts, and then the enormous cost of getting approved in each state individually makes for an enormous barrier to cutting edge, up to date, and interesting CE.

Instead, the for-profit providers have to offer the standard updates and top o' the news items like "frauds & flips" "New URAR" etc. Items us "old timers" took some version of for a decade or two. In otherwords, CE is dumbed down to the lowest denominator in order to attract the most students. Few classes can be offered with less than 10 people and still pay the bills. $300-400 for an instructor + expenses. Frankly, I consult out to the oil & gas biz for $500 a day plus expenses. Appraisers rarely can compete largely because the overall business simply doesn't pay well enough. I get lots of mineral regulatory offerings (landmen, etc.) that are $1200 courses and I will be taking a course in Oct that will push four figures. Cannot justify that for appraisal school.
Other expenses run say, $200 for a classroom. Some society wants a cut of the pay...etc. $150 a head doesn't go far.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, some of the old heads who were approved in the early 90's haven't updated courses in years or simply died off. When is the last time NAIFA offered a Farm Appraisal Course? I spoke with a USPAP approved instructor last week who doesn't really want to teach any classes any more. He simply doesn't like it and it's not profitable.

There is a tremendous barrier to good CE. It is the same barrier to good appraising. Lack of compensation. The states are required to certify schools, screen all offerings, etc. and it cost them to do so. There has got to be a better way. If you sought approval in 20 states to teach a relatively unique course that is unlikely to draw over 20 students avg. and charged $150, then it is likely to cost upwards $5000-10,000 to get it approved (particularly a 2 day certifying ed course) in 20 states. The book will cost $20 to publish probably. The teacher (20 days worth plus expenses) will run $10,000. The class room maybe $4000. Delays, approval costs, society taking their piece of the pie...there really isn't much left for the person who develops the course, writes the book, etc. To top that, the societies who would sponsor the class (but not any prep thereof) frequently want a cut and want the copyrights to the book...yeah. free.

Either courses need approved centrally (AQB?), or the standards should be such that approval of a class in one state should be automatic approval in another - neither of which will probably happen.

We can talk about 'better' CE; more 'interesting' CE; but the bottom line is that CE is for most of us, merely a "process", a hoop to jump thru which increases our knowledge base very little. Nothing the state boards, nor ASC, nor TAF has done or is likely to do will change that. Until instructors can create the class, the materials and do so profitably, you will just have to suck it up. I don't see that on the horizon.
 
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We can talk about 'better' CE; more 'interesting' CE; but the bottom line is that CE is for most of us, merely a "process", a hoop to jump thru which increases our knowledge base very little. Nothing the state boards, nor ASC, nor TAF has done or is likely to do will change that. Until instructors can create the class, the materials and do so profitably, you will just have to suck it up. I don't see that on the horizon.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well said. I gave up on the local CE offerings and went with diatance learning because I could get a wider variety of course offerings and did not have to deal with Mr. "What-If" that tied up the class on a regular basis. This new requirement for the "managing trainees" class is stupid. It should only be mandatory IF you have or anticipate having trainees. I'm a one man shop and always will be. This class is just a waste of my time, and I'll probably bring work with me to stay busy with.
 
Same problems here in Maine. Most people are driving to Mass for CE and QE classes.
 
Well, i have my own NSHO...

The cost of creating a class, a handbook, slides or handouts, and then the enormous cost of getting approved in each state individually makes for an enormous barrier to cutting edge, up to date, and interesting CE.

Instead, the for-profit providers have to offer the standard updates and top o' the news items like "frauds & flips" "New URAR" etc. Items us "old timers" took some version of for a decade or two. In otherwords, CE is dumbed down to the lowest denominator in order to attract the most students. Few classes can be offered with less than 10 people and still pay the bills. $300-400 for an instructor + expenses. Frankly, I consult out to the oil & gas biz for $500 a day plus expenses. Appraisers rarely can compete largely because the overall business simply doesn't pay well enough. I get lots of mineral regulatory offerings (landmen, etc.) that are $1200 courses and I will be taking a course in Oct that will push four figures. Cannot justify that for appraisal school.
Other expenses run say, $200 for a classroom. Some society wants a cut of the pay...etc. $150 a head doesn't go far.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, some of the old heads who were approved in the early 90's haven't updated courses in years or simply died off. When is the last time NAIFA offered a Farm Appraisal Course? I spoke with a USPAP approved instructor last week who doesn't really want to teach any classes any more. He simply doesn't like it and it's not profitable.

There is a tremendous barrier to good CE. It is the same barrier to good appraising. Lack of compensation. The states are required to certify schools, screen all offerings, etc. and it cost them to do so. There has got to be a better way. If you sought approval in 20 states to teach a relatively unique course that is unlikely to draw over 20 students avg. and charged $150, then it is likely to cost upwards $5000-10,000 to get it approved (particularly a 2 day certifying ed course) in 20 states. The book will cost $20 to publish probably. The teacher (20 days worth plus expenses) will run $10,000. The class room maybe $4000. Delays, approval costs, society taking their piece of the pie...there really isn't much left for the person who develops the course, writes the book, etc. To top that, the societies who would sponsor the class (but not any prep thereof) frequently want a cut and want the copyrights to the book...yeah. free.

Either courses need approved centrally (AQB?), or the standards should be such that approval of a class in one state should be automatic approval in another - neither of which will probably happen.

We can talk about 'better' CE; more 'interesting' CE; but the bottom line is that CE is for most of us, merely a "process", a hoop to jump thru which increases our knowledge base very little. Nothing the state boards, nor ASC, nor TAF has done or is likely to do will change that. Until instructors can create the class, the materials and do so profitably, you will just have to suck it up. I don't see that on the horizon.

Terrell,

You have outlined much of the problem, so I won't reinvent the wheel. States see the approval of a course and instructor as a money maker. My state of Virginia does not pre-approve any CE courses. So, they don't make a dime off of the provider or the instructor. As long as the CE course is at least 2 hours long and meets the CE requirements in the Real Estate Appraiser Board Regulations update January 1, 2008 then any such CE course will be accepted for CE. As long as the instructor that teaches the 7 hour USPAP Update course is AQB Certified, he/she does not need state approval to teach that course.

The reasons that you have noted is why I stopped developing courses and getting them approved in other states.I could not afford to develop a course where maybe 10 people would show up after I had spent several thousands of dollars developing, printing, and getting approval for a course. There are a few course providers on a national scale such as McKissock and The Columbia Institute that have good offerings. But it is often easier for a student to take an online course, no matter how good or bad, and just get it over with. The online courses have hurt the "Live" classes, and have caused a dumbing down in my opinion. There are a few who still do independent courses, and I teach a few courses for them. But, they are certainly not money makers.

I agree that we should have a national clearing house for courses and instructors. But, i doubt if the states who make money off this would ever go for that. The AQB may attempt to do that at some point. For quality control if fo no other reason.

BTW, I was the second appraiser certified to teach pre-licensure courses in my state (#4002-000002).
 
There needs to be a class put together for CE than focuses on appraisal principles and methodologies applied to real life situations. There's been a gap between the text books and courses offered that are applying appraising fundamentals to real life situations.

IMO, the dumbing down was done on purpose and I won't go into why. All that said, the dumbing down was going on long before online courses were approved. I got sick and tired of sitting there all day watching people do other work, read the paper or were just bored to death. Frankly, I think many of the online courses are equal to if not better than class attended ones. Now one comes along that starts making a difference, perhaps I'll agree.

In the mean time, anyone who really wants to experience the best appraisal education they could ever encounter--do the demo as required by the AI and don't take the cliff class. It is NOT the same.

What the AI used to do was offer a demo class with a weekend lock down kind of thing. There is NO WAY anyone can get from a class can what a demonstration appraisal report offers. Absolutely, positively, no way.
 
easier for a student to take an online course,
I know Realtors and appraisers who take Online courses because they can complete them in less than the so-called 7 hours (6 hr for Realtors). Secondly, someone taking an online course for you is common, at least among Realtors. I know several agents who say they took an on-line course for someone else or for the broker (boss) for a few cash bucks or as a favor.
Mr. "What-If" that tied up the class
a good instructor can limit that without stifling the interaction that is a natural part of good class work. They need to cut off the "thread" so to speak when it gets off topic.
Most people are driving to Mass
Gee even the Catholics are teaching CE now? :rof: Seriously, smaller states are limited in the # of schools available...which means the narrow selection of classes is even more focused. One of our schools was run by an appraiser who was killed in a car wreck a few weeks ago. We are down to maybe 3 USPAP certified instructors (the youngest is probably 60 yr old or close) in AR. One instructor in OK I know is over 75. The future of his school is a question mark. To get unique CE I have been to classes in Colorado and New Mexico as well as Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas offerings. Some places I just ain't going....either coast, class on some cruise ship [haven't seen an offering of that lately] etc. The expense of going can exceed the school cost by considerable.
CE classes are pointless if you have to take the same things over....and that goes a long way towards explaining those folks reading books or text messaging in class.
Interesting CE in a class of no more than 25 allows a lot of interaction and a true learning experience.
The last cycle of USPAP was awful. If you recall there was some delay in getting USPAP books out in 06. And the class scheduled early in the year. The materials were not available to the instructor until hours before class. He struggled with the material and literally was seeing some of it for the first time. That same instructor taught my class last week and was as good as USPAP updates get. We covered a lot of ground without pregnant pauses and paper shuffling. A good instructor cannot make up for a bad class.
 
"cliff class"

...In the mean time, anyone who really wants to experience the best appraisal education they could ever encounter--do the demo as required by the AI and don't take the cliff class. It is NOT the same.

What the AI used to do was offer a demo class with a weekend lock down kind of thing. There is NO WAY anyone can get from a class can what a demonstration appraisal report offers. Absolutely, positively, no way.

Joyce, I recently shared a meal with a man whose name I suspect you would be familiar with. He's a well-known and highly respected instructor for the AI and he has taught the "cliff class" that you refer to (for others: two separate courses over 6 days, total of 45-hr.).

I told him that I would be enrolling in the "cliff class" the next time it came to Chicago and, further, we briefly discussed the criticism (I take "cliff class" as a criticism) of the 45-hr. module.

His take on it: He invites the critics to enroll in the 45-hr. "cliff class" for CE and see whether or not they can successfully complete the two courses. Do you have interest?

Lee
 
Part II: "cliff class"

...What the AI used to do was offer a demo class with a weekend lock down kind of thing. There is NO WAY anyone can get from a class can what a demonstration appraisal report offers. Absolutely, positively, no way.

Joyce, in all seriousness, what set of skills--other than "beating the bushes for market data"--might be tested in the "do it on one's own demo" but not tested in the 45-hr. module?

Lee
 
There needs to be a class put together for CE than focuses on appraisal principles and methodologies applied to real life situations. There's been a gap between the text books and courses offered that are applying appraising fundamentals to real life situations.

IMO, the dumbing down was done on purpose and I won't go into why. All that said, the dumbing down was going on long before online courses were approved. I got sick and tired of sitting there all day watching people do other work, read the paper or were just bored to death. Frankly, I think many of the online courses are equal to if not better than class attended ones. Now one comes along that starts making a difference, perhaps I'll agree


Joyce,

Just a suggestion....why don't you put together such a course? It will likely cost you about $1,000. Then get it approved in as many states as you want. 10+ states will cost you an average of $250.00 per state x 10 = $2,500. Then rent a space in each state at an average of about $500.00 per day to $1,000.00 per day(average $750.00) $750.00 x 10 = $7,500. Now do some advertising and at least get the list from each state and send out flyers, letters, notices for a cost of about $1,500.00

Now you are all set.........and you have 10 students show up in 10 states at $125.00 per student or, 100 x $125.00 = $12,500.00

But wait, if you just use the cost figures I gave you, and they are on the very low side, you will have made.....drum roll please........$12,500.00

So, therefore, your earnings will be zero, zip, nada. Hopefully you will have taught the course yourself, if not you will be out anywhere from $500.00 to $800.00 per day for an instructor. Let's just say $500.00 per day. 1 day course x 10 states, in 10 days, $500.00 x 10 = $5,000.00 So, after all this, you have gone in the hole $5,000.00

That is why you do not see new, exciting classes to teach appraisers what they already should know.
 
Joyce, in all seriousness, what set of skills--other than "beating the bushes for market data"--might be tested in the "do it on one's own demo" but not tested in the 45-hr. module?

Lee

Lee - You challenged me and I challenged you back. You do the full demo in addition to the course, and I'll do the course in addition to the full demo.

The demo puts you right into IT. Every time you tweak one approach, you usually have to go back and re-adjust the others, showing exactly just how inter-related the approach often are.

45 hours? rofl

I spent that much time just starting out on two demo properties before I finally decided on the third one that afforded me the market data to support all the approaches I needed to D E M O N S T R A T E.

The lessons learned in that demo were invaluable in tying together the individual approaches and learning more about each approach to value than any course or any of the courses put together in my 25 years.

And I did back when pools were not allowed to be used for functional obsolescence. My functional was a enclosed, decked out enclosed porch and the super adequacy.

For anyone looking to do a demo in Central Florida, Winter Park holds more demo opportunity than any place else, IMO.
 
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