Appraiser didn't measure during interior inspection

[Alison Swain]

Does anyone know if not measuring a home during an interior inspection could be considered a violation of some sort?

What's the real question, measuring at all or measuring the interior specifically?

Why not measure GLA according to ANSI standards. Measure garage, porches, utility areas separately.

Don't see what the point is of measuring inside unless you found an area which isn't really living space.

 

[Lee Lansford]

Does anyone know if not measuring a home during an interior inspection could be considered a violation of some sort?

I believe it's considered an essential part of the inspection by most reasonable appraisers in my area. Our public records data contains basic sketches of the homes in some counties around here. I've noticed appraisers using those sketches, the dimensions of which are rounded to the nearest foot, on a full 1004 appraisal with interior inspection.

So, is not measuring, in and of itself, a violation (like inssuficient scope of work, or something else), or does it only become an issue when an appraiser has relied upon public records data, which is in fact significantly wrong, when all he had to do was put a tape/laser to it?

I would love to get the perspective of anyone who sits on a state appraisal board. Thanks

How is the appraiser going to make any money and meet the turn-time expectations of the AMC if he (or, she) has to take time to actually measure the improvements?

 

[Rudy Canoza]

Well I WAS going to shut up and go away...! LOL! ... Mr. Canoza, do you really think the appraisers doing this are smart?

No I don't. But, again, that's not my point. And that's not my argument...

I'm going to role play for you. I'm at the state board of appraisers. Across my desk are thousands of complaints from appraisers and lenders and brokers and borrowers about all sorts of things. A few involve value fraud in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Most are nit-pick things like measuring the subject and not having the census tract correct and on and on.

You see my point. Or not...whatever.

 

[Mike Garrett RAA]

On the MLS input sheet for my MLS there are required fields for measurement. Choices are: Public Record, Agent Measured, or Appraiser Measured.

Please don't tell my you personally measure the comparables because I won't even believe it. You have to make some assumptions. My choice is that of public record which, incidentally, is what the real estate agents use.

Long ago I decided that I would use public record because if someone is checking my work that is the first place they go. I also choose to use the same level of measurement that the assessor uses, ie., to the nearest 1/2 foot. My some 12,000 reports have been consistent and have never been a problem when it comes to square footage with one exception. A VA reviewer recently said I was off because he calculated the measurements to the inch. Unfortunately, he counted the stairs on both levels so I won.

 

[Robert E Keller]

In my office, if you step foot on the subject property you measure. seems to work well. I think 20 min. worth of measurements, 10 with disto, is better than 5 hours in front of the DBPR in Florida anyway.

zookeeper

 

[Webbed Feet]

Mr. CAnoza,

LOL! I think if we role play would should take on more serious and accurate roles and stats.... How about we change those "thousands" to barely 130 complaints a year with the head adminstrator frustrated by the lack of complaints being filed and the entire board administration chagrined banks never file complaints at all?

And move that nit picking about simple lack of measuring to failure to disclose it. Look, you can parse this in order just to have fun here, but I know darn well what at least my board does when appraisers don't do what they were supposed to have done and do things they were not supposed to have done. Like sign certifications they drove the comps and did not. Hey, it's just nit picking right?

Bottom line, the jokers doing this are pulling all sorts of other crap as well. And I have not been debating the lack of measuring. I have been posting about the lack of measuring and not disclosing it. Two very different things.

Webbed.

 

[PropertyEconomics]

Mr. Economics, you have made the extraordinary assumption, and derailed my point having done so, that because I am arguing enforcement, I, by some twisted sort of logic, must be one of the appraisers who doesn't measure my subject property.

Lecture and moral high-ground aside, how could the state board prove that the appraiser didn't measure any given subject property? And in the overall scheme of things, how does measuring a stucco box like a thousand other stucco boxes compare to valuation fraud by poor comp selection?

I guess what I'm saying is that state boards are under staffed, under funded, and would probably take more serious appraisal crimes as a priority over measuring a tract home.

I would guess if the owner, IN THEIR COMPLAINT, said you were there 10 minutes and didnt measure the board would take a look at that.

And If I read what your implying .. hell do anything you want .... the board wont catch you anyway ... and you may sadly be right. The only difference is I have to sleep at night. Yes .. I know shocking huh. My father instilled values in me and he taught me to be ethical.

Mr Rex said it best .. My dad had tolerance for mistakes .. he had no tolerance for lies.

 

[Webbed Feet]

Mr. Garrett,

You missed one of my earlier posts wherein I stated my thoughts on this thread are that this thread is not about comparable. It's about the subject property only and where the information on it came from. Every post I am making only regards the subject property. I agree, standard practice regarding comps requires assumptions on the information. However, this is not true regarding standard practice involving subject footage unless those assumptions are fully disclosed per Standard Two.

And plagerizing public information regarding a subject's size, with absolutely no disclosure of having done so... is a no no in my book. The issue is lack of disclosure.

Webbed.

 

[Chuck Melton]

Some interesting thoughts...
How important is a difference of, say, 66 square feet? 66SF as a percentage of what total square feet or GLA? If your adjustment for GLA is, say $25 a foot...that would be $1650. If it was $50 a SF that would be $3,300. What percent of total value is that?

Well, I didn't want to get into the issue of GLA adjustment factors, buuuuut .........

I use the market - some of my old mentors (residential ones, not the commercial guys) had a Cost/SF ratio rule, which I hate to admit, I used for a while when I was a trainee - but I always thought it was crap.

Realtors market and sell (push might be more appropriate) based upon price/SF and the general buying public, being the conglomerated pack of sheep it often resembles, swallows it. As a result, statistical analysis, no matter what you adjust out first (and assuming you're NOT using outrageous factors like $10K for a fence, or $15K for a culdesac location) will always show that $/SF is the trend line the data will group most tightly around (i.e. the one with the least variance).

Since the actions of willing buyers and sellers CREATES the market, the way they make their decisions en-mass (regardless of what degree one side may be getting fleeced) should be reflected in how we analyze the market.

The model I've created extracts market conditions first, then applies necessary adjustments to the orginal sale prices of a large group of sales (preferably at least 50). I then develop independent graphs for price vs. age and price vs. GLA. The results from each graph get fed back into each in other by a looped macro until changes created as the feedback look runs disappear to almost zero. This results in $/SF and $/YR adjustment factors which produce an adjusted data set with the least variation possible when factoring in Size (GLA) and Age.

Because pools have considerable value here in Florida, and since public records in these parts tell me Y or N, I actually run that model for both pool and non-pool homes. The difference in the two data sets gives me a very nice 2D model for pool ajustments based upon the size of the home and its age

Having said all that, the adjustment factor for $/SF in this neighborhood is around $120/SF (or was back in Jan/Feb).

This guy used $30/SF - so in his report, you are right.... the resulting error is not much in terms of percentage on a $250K+/- home. But only because he's using the wrong adjustment factor, IMO.

I'm not going to try and wage that battle with FREAB - If I did, the only argument I would have is based upon the prevailing method used by our peers - and don't believe there is ANY consensus on that matter, nor do I think most appraisers would be honest if asked by a Board member - I believe 80% of the residential appraisers who got certified since 2001 use the above mentioned "ratio of Cost/SF" and tout the maxim that "you can never adjust more/SF in the SCA than the cost-new or depreciated cost (take your pick), or they use the tried and true(ly worthless) "wet-thumb-in-the-air" method.

I think my way of doing it is pretty damned spot-on, or I wouldn't waste the considerable time it takes to do it, nor would I be trying to develop a PHP/MySQL database system to automate it and build a pwerful analytical capability within my market. IMO, there is much resistance to doing things that way because of the level of ability in a couple of disciplines necessary to do it. In the future, with increased educational requirements now in effect, we should have more appraiser's with better statistical and analytical backgrounds. I think then my method, or something like it, will become the dominant way

I think I'm going to start a new topic on this one - I searched, and the most recent one I could find was from 2005

Lastly, remember, people who live in glass houses should never throw rocks. If you decide to file a complaint be sure your shorts are squeaky clean.

I definitely hear you... and I've considered it. I believe I have been as thorough in my practice of this profession as I can possibly be and I am constantly trying to find chinks in my armor - many of my supplemental addendums approach 4 & 5 pages because of my commercial background and an old MAI who routinely cut me off half-way through asking a question with "DISCLOSE IT!!" Another mentor I had told me "Never underestimate the ability of a bureaucrat to find fault with you if he feels either inconvenienced, defensive, or just needs to look like he's doing something."

Hopefully, even if I forget to change my underwear, I've managed to trade any glass panes for 2" Lexan - yeah, das it... I'm bullet proof, baby!:new_2gunsfiring_v1:

Regardless of how bureauc.... err bullet-proof I am, or am not, the superstructure of my house is irrelevant because the moles, termites, gophers, snakes, and wandering sewage-soaked roots (suiting analogies to what everyone around here calls "skippy") are destroying the foundation my house is built on. If all of us don't start taking action VERY soon (like yesterday) I can throw all the rocks I want because I'll be living iN A VAN, DOWN BY THE RIVER!!!

 

[Lee Lansford]

...I doubt that the state board cares unless the appraiser certifies to something that he didn't do or unless the incorrect building size is used in the report...

I wouldn't bet my license on it!