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REO's as comparables to non-REO

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Would a typical buyer, who wanted to live in your subject neighborhood, go far away just to pay more?

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Or, would the typical buyer pay more for a "traditional" property vs. one which is an REO?

I know what the answer is in the overwhelming majority of neighborhoods (with varying degrees of REO presence) which I frequent, but I'm most curious as to what the answer might be in the neighborhood where the OP's subject property is located.
 
The broker wants me to go outside the neighborhood (as far as need be) in order to use only non-REO's for comparables.

The broker or owner can challenge the value or comps used, but that's a ridiculous statement to make, especially if the REO comps are of a similar condition as the subject.

I don't usually feel comfortable using all REO sales and short sales as comps, in case the market does recognize a difference, but sometimes that's all that's available for comps. But even if the market is REO-driven, if you can at least use one or more non-REO/short sale comps you can demonstrate any difference.
 
All I can say is when I sold my last property in 5/2010 I was in direct competition with about 5 REOs at all times (79 days of nerve racking/sleepless nights) and the standard sales had all been on the market over 120 days. So in order to sell I was forced to compete with the REOs. That was Woodland Hills, your mileage may vary.
 
The broker or owner can challenge the value or comps used, but that's a ridiculous statement to make, especially if the REO comps are of a similar condition as the subject.

I don't usually feel comfortable using all REO sales and short sales as comps, in case the market does recognize a difference, but sometimes that's all that's available for comps. But even if the market is REO-driven, if you can at least use one or more non-REO/short sale comps you can demonstrate any difference.

I'm in Lloyd's camp.

I'm not shy about using REOs but I dont like to use all REOs. I'll go a ways a way or a way back in time to get a good comp that's a Resale. Part of the job is demonstrating good faith that you've given due consideration to the things most likely to affect the value of the subject. Distressed sales are quite reasonably put into the "likely to affect value" category.

From what you have described, I'd hesitate to go to this outside neighborhood for a comp unless I really considered it to be a dead-nuts-on even-steven location. Location adjustments can be some of the more difficult adjustments to properly substantiate.

I would be MUCH more inclined to go back in time in the Sub's neighborhood to find the most recent comparable resale, and make whatever time adjustment is indicated. That's a far less tricky comp to fold into the grid.
 
So long as I am able to differentiate the prices paid for REOs and non-REO sales, I will adjust the REO up if I might feel obliged to use the REO. But the notion that an REO and the almost certitude that it sold "AS IS" or the sale was pushed for quick disposal will sell for the exact amount a non-REO would is absurd in my world.

All the REO is going to do is push the price down. And again, my question is if you have 2 REOs and one traditional sale, what are you going to do? Adjust the traditional sale DOWN!!!! Yep, yer honor, it sold arm's length and we can't have none of that no matter what fannie mae's defintion sez... everybody knows you have to sell like it is distressed...

Fannie mae didn't anticipate the time when the whole marketplace went down. Their definition of MV may be completely out of sycn with the real world, but if we are going to use REOs as a substitute for arms length sales, then we need to just let the BPOs set the price...they'd be more accurate.
 
I always enjoy Terrel's comments...much to learn from him. And he is correct....the current Definition of Market Value we use can make analysis difficult for some appraisers.

But (and I'll probably get jumped)....I make no adjustment to the REO or SS comps for the 'type' of sale they are vs traditional A.L. sales. First, how would you derive a supportable adjustment? Second, by adjusting those types 'up' to compensate for their lower sale price, it skews market activity.

Appraisers tend to forget that if comparable REO's/SS's are plentiful, they DO represent the market. So they should be included in a report........but I would not adjust them to try to make them equal to Arms Length sales just on that basis alone.

U/W's these days are looking at all sales in a neighborhood regardless of 'type', and they want us to include active listings/pendings also to get a sense of 'today's' prices, not just prices from last week or last month, etc. for the sales we use.
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As a side-bar to this discussion, I just completed a one year trend chart for 'all' A.L., REO & SS sales in one MLS area, and plotted the resulting median prices on an Excel spreadsheet/graph. For the entire year, the Short Sales exceeded the price of the REO's. A.L.'s were the highest price, then SS, then the REO's. I did this to compare with the trend charts in the Live Valuation article which showed similar charts. They are very close.
 
We had a very heated argument concerning using REO and short sales as comparables nearly two years ago in our local appraisers group (CAREA). The presenter was the then president of the group. He contended using such sales violated the definition of market value as stated in the certifications. Many of the older, more seasoned, appraisers challenged him on his contention and ultimately we agreed to disagree.

Shortly there after he went to work for FHA at the Denver HOC. Last month he came down to represent FHA as part of a panel discussion with new home builders. He again repeated the contention that FHA (HUD) does not want to see REOs and Short Sales used as comps as they do not meet the definition of market value. Then he added ..."of course if those sales are Representative of the market, the appraiser should analyze them and then state why they were not used as comparables because of the definition of market value". The VA representative just shook his head and when ask about that he said..."the market is the market and if it is comprised of REOs and short sales then that is the market".

No wonder FHA has become the new sub-prime. I concur Fannie needs to modify it's definition of market value. Right now, on my cul-de-sac there are 3 properties offered for sale. Two are identical models, one is a short sale and the other is a traditional sale. The short sale is priced at $190,000 and the traditional sale priced at $225,000. If you were in the market which one would you buy and why?
 
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But (and I'll probably get jumped)....I make no adjustment to the REO or SS comps for the 'type' of sale they are vs traditional A.L. sales. First, how would you derive a supportable adjustment?
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...For the entire year, the Short Sales exceeded the price of the REO's. A.L.'s were the highest price, then SS, then the REO's. I did this to compare with the trend charts in the Live Valuation article which showed similar charts. They are very close.



I believe that you have answered your question--1st paragraph above--with your comment in the 2nd.

Let me ask: You're offering an opinion of Market Value (per Fannie). Sales (etc.) of properties which are physically most similar to the property are split between REOs/Short Sales (both having very similar prices) and "traditional" transaction-type properties. Prices (sales prices etc.) for these "traditional" properties are generally 10%-25% higher than for the REO/Short Sale properties. In reconciling (assuming you include both REOs/Short Sales & "traditional" among your comps), you weight toward...which?
 
As a side-bar to this discussion, I just completed a one year trend chart for 'all' A.L., REO & SS sales in one MLS area, and plotted the resulting median prices on an Excel spreadsheet/graph. For the entire year, the Short Sales exceeded the price of the REO's. A.L.'s were the highest price, then SS, then the REO's. I did this to compare with the trend charts in the Live Valuation article which showed similar charts. They are very close.

I do that on market and subject sub-market basis on pretty much every job. I use it to derive an adjustment for the REO's and Shorts.

The situation you describe is entirely typical. Generally, what you see is the regression line for the Resales at some level, the REO's line $30-$60/SF lower, and the Shorts somewhere in between. Generally, for an adjustment I look at something between 1/3rd and 1/2 of of the price differential between the REO's and the Resales as my adjustment. My rationale is thus.

Amongst these three separate groups of properties you have resales which are dominantly owner occupied, minimal deferred maintenance, in decent condition, with responsive owners that can provide disclosures and that are capable of closing escrow in a short and predictable amount of time. Amongst the Shorts, you dominantly have owner occupied, minor deferred maintenance, and disclosures available, but you're at the mercy of banks WRT to responsiveness to offers and you have minimal ability to predict a reasonable time line for the buyer taking possession. Some will argue that the banks are doing better with this, and that maybe be true, but nonetheless the stigma exists, and no agent in their right mind will show their clients Shorts and REOs if they under pressure to move because of a transfer or something like that. That predictability and flexibility of the traditional seller is worth something in the market place. REOs share all of the short comings of the Shorts, plus overall poorer condition.....some times much poorer. If you'll notice, the distressed sales deficits break out to categories 1) Transactional Conditions, and 2)Quality and condition issues. Since in the sales grid we typically adjust for quality and condition separately, its unreasonable to use the full differential between the Resales and REOs on the trend analysis to adjust the REO's; you'd be double dipping on quality and condition....worse, you'd be ignoring the actual quality and condition of the subject in favor of a regressed average. However, since the Shorts are basically all category 1 (transactional) with minimal Category 2 (QnC) influences, the short sale regression line provides an important clue to the market reaction to the Category 1 influences. Since the Short line is usually about 1/2 way between the Resale and the REO, but usually nearer the Resales, that's how we come up with the 1/2 to 1/3rd rule of thumb. I base the adjustment on the REO line instead of the Short sale line all by itself, because there's usually about 10 times as many REOs as Shorts so the data is more solid.
 
... Right now, on my cul-de-sac there are 3 properties offered for sale. Two are identical models, one is a short sale and the other is a traditional sale. The short sale is priced at $190,000 and the traditional sale priced at $225,000. If you were in the market which one would you buy and why?



Does your market differentiate, as to price paid, for two very similar properties with the only significant difference being one is a Short Sale and the other is "traditional"?

I know that in the neighborhoods which I frequent, I can most frequently identify REO/Short Sale properties vs. "traditional" properties based upon a single factor: price.
 
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