BBG - a good place to start as a commercial appraisal trainee?

[gabramovich]

I'd be curious as to your expectations for both the job and overall career.

I like NewHavenMAI's reality check of "think about where you will be at 50".

If you came back to the forum in a decade with a CG cert, I would be impressed.

JTip - Can I ask you why you think it would take me a decade to get the CG cert. I guess you’re saying if I work for a national firm the certification process will go super slow?

 

[JTip]

40 hours of 'work' a week at a firm does not equal 40 hours of logged hours toward certification.

At this point in your life, I'm going to assume you probably have a house, a family perhaps, a car or two, some financial responsibilities. You may be a bachelor with a bus pass, which would be the best case scenario. Working at a firm, or any place as a trainee, you should make a living wage, perhaps less, perhaps more. I know entry level people in the big city that make enough for a one bedroom apartment. Maybe you have a couple million in the bank from wise crypto investments and can totally focus on training, knocking it out in a few years.

Becoming a CG is twice as hard as a CR. Unless financially independent, not needing to worry about typical life expenses, bank on 5 years to get a CR while working, paying bills, taking classes, a weekend off or two, taking the wife out to dinner (if applicable), and for that elusive CG title, 10 years or less is impressive.

 

[JTip]

PA trainee license is good for 8 years (4 x 2 year terms). So here you would have to do it in 8.

 

[gabramovich]

40 hours of 'work' a week at a firm does not equal 40 hours of logged hours toward certification.

At this point in your life, I'm going to assume you probably have a house, a family perhaps, a car or two, some financial responsibilities. You may be a bachelor with a bus pass, which would be the best case scenario. Working at a firm, or any place as a trainee, you should make a living wage, perhaps less, perhaps more. I know entry level people in the big city that make enough for a one bedroom apartment. Maybe you have a couple million in the bank from wise crypto investments and can totally focus on training, knocking it out in a few years.

Becoming a CG is twice as hard as a CR. Unless financially independent, not needing to worry about typical life expenses, bank on 5 years to get a CR while working, paying bills, taking classes, a weekend off or two, taking the wife out to dinner (if applicable), and for that elusive CG title, 10 years or less is impressive.

Hi JTip - I really appreciate the reality check from you since it is always good to hear the pessimistic and the realistic side.

But I'm a little confused about your calculations. The Certified General license in CA requires 3,000 hours of experience. If we were to assume that working full time (40 hours/week) at an appraisal firm, I clock as little as 15 hours per week of experience hours, that comes out to 15X48 = 720 per year. At that rate I would still complete the the CG licensing experience requirements within approximately 4 years.

To stretch that over 10 years (like you are suggesting) would mean that I am clocking in a maximum of 6.5 commercial appraisal hours per week, since that would b 6.5 X 48 X 10 = 3,120 hours.

I just can't see how it would be possible to be clocking in so few billable hours if I'm working full time at a national firm that pays their trainees a (modest) salary for the first year and then puts them on a fee split beginning in the second year.

 

[gabramovich]

At this point in your life, I'm going to assume you probably have a house, a family perhaps, a car or two, some financial responsibilities. You may be a bachelor with a bus pass, which would be the best case scenario. Working at a firm, or any place as a trainee, you should make a living wage, perhaps less, perhaps more. I know entry level people in the big city that make enough for a one bedroom apartment. Maybe you have a couple million in the bank from wise crypto investments and can totally focus on training, knocking it out in a few years.

I have a strong educational background (BA and PhD in a field unrelated to appraisal or real estate).

I'm getting married this year. No kids or home or mortgage yet. Future wife makes 3X as much as I made in my previous job, so picking up the slack financially for some period of time is feasible. I have enough savings to live on a budget without a salary for 18-24 months or to comfortably supplement a modest trainee salary for approximately 24-36 months.

Not sure if any of this changes your perspective or advice.

I also have the option to work directly with my mom - she is a State Certified Residential appraiser (20 years of experience), and she would train me. But she is located a 6 hours drive north of me, so I would have to be flying or driving to stay up near her M-F to work with her while I get the Residential License, and then could come back down to my location to work here. Presumably if I do this route and get the Cert Residential with her, I could start working and then try to more gradually transition into commercial appraisal.

This option is feasible too, but everyone I have spoken to has told me to go directly into commercial appraisal instead of taking the Certified Residential route first.

 

[Deleted member 126639]

NewHavenMAI and JTip - I agree with both of you. If I had my way, I’d rather start at a smaller (8-12) appraiser shop with MAI’s directly supervising me. But those sorts of trainee positions are rare and difficult to get.

During the last month, I cold called 25 MAI’a in my area looking to get hired, and have applied to a bunch of mid-size firms that had trainee positions. Often the small shops don’t even want trainees, and mid-size firms haven’t responded. I was able to get one small shop to interview me after a bunch of cold calls led to my CV being shared with their leadership, and although the interview went well, they told me they didn’t have capacity to train somebody right now. They even said “go get experience elsewhere, even in residential appraisal (since my mother is a Certified Residential Appraiser), and then come back to us and we will bring you on the team.”

I’ve enrolled in REFM and Argus Certification Programs hoping they they would strengthen my resume, but without a path to gain experience I’m sort of stuck. I’m even offering commercial appraisers to work for free (or to even pay them a substantial lump sum down payment in cash) for a period of time just to gain experience.

So from my perspective starting somewhere is better than nowhere, and if I manage to get an offer from an national firm, even with some of its disadvantages, I should jump on it.

I can sympathize with the challenge of training. At a smaller business, you're not cranking out cookie cutter reports non-stop. So you can't easily just have people replicate work over and over again. It has always been a hard business to get into.

All that said, while Argus certification is helpful, I wouldn't hire someone unless they had taken the Appraisal Institute classes up through the advanced income approach class. Investing the time and money into the designation shows commitment, and unless you have a solid finance/economics background, it's the easiest way short of some kind of masters degree to ensure you have a basic level of understanding. Residential appraisal is probably not a bad idea either, though I've not personally seen that transition often.

Whatever you do though, you absolutely can get your MAI designation in 4 and half or 5 years. You will be sick of the grind by 50 guaranteed, and the designation is the ticket to an easier, though probably not lucrative, salaried position at a bank or for the government.

But if the only offer you get is from a national, it is definitely better than nothing. Just plan your exit opportunities and options from Day 1.

 

[Deleted member 126639]

Hi JTip - I really appreciate the reality check from you since it is always good to hear the pessimistic and the realistic side.

But I'm a little confused about your calculations. The Certified General license in CA requires 3,000 hours of experience. If we were to assume that working full time (40 hours/week) at an appraisal firm, I clock as little as 15 hours per week of experience hours, that comes out to 15X48 = 720 per year. At that rate I would still complete the the CG licensing experience requirements within approximately 4 years.

To stretch that over 10 years (like you are suggesting) would mean that I am clocking in a maximum of 6.5 commercial appraisal hours per week, since that would b 6.5 X 48 X 10 = 3,120 hours.

I just can't see how it would be possible to be clocking in so few billable hours if I'm working full time at a national firm that pays their trainees a (modest) salary for the first year and then puts them on a fee split beginning in the second year.

Classes are supposedly harder now, but I really don't agree. If you can't get your CG license after 3-4 years, I'd say it's time to find a new career.

 

[JTip]

Nice to see you are giving yourself off 4 weeks a year.

4 years for experience, sure, its possible in a controlled environment with consistent non-stop work. What about those 250 hours of classroom training? Maybe replace one of those 4 weeks of vacation a year and squeeze in those class hours over 4 years. Be sure to ask the wife-to-be if she is OK with your 'modest' salary for the next 4+ years. hahahaha

Check with your state, but PA allows 50% of experience hours to be residential when going for CG, or when upgrading from CR to CG they require 1,500 hours of commercial experience.

During my training, I sold real estate and insurance (property and casualty) to pay the bills while squeezing in appraisals. From day one till I passed the CR state test was 4.5 years. Mom scenario is more tempting, unfortunate she is 6 hours away.

Your answer will come after you figure out if the numbers are realistic and your potential employer can support your expectations, both training opportunities and assumed financial compensation fee splits.

I default back to -NewHavenMAI's reality check of "think about where you will be at 50"-. And remember too, just because you pass the state test and get your certification from the state doesn't mean the 'gravy train' of clients will be beating down your independent door. It's like getting a drivers license; you won't get to drive the Corvette just because you passed your drivers test. You get to drive the Civic for a couple years first. Clients want a 'seasoned' certification for their golf course/skyscraper/eminent domain appraisals, not a CG cert fresh off the printer.

Not trying to be a downer, just letting you know if it was that easy then way more people would be doing it.

 

[PL1957]

Hi JTip - I really appreciate the reality check from you since it is always good to hear the pessimistic and the realistic side.

But I'm a little confused about your calculations. The Certified General license in CA requires 3,000 hours of experience. If we were to assume that working full time (40 hours/week) at an appraisal firm, I clock as little as 15 hours per week of experience hours, that comes out to 15X48 = 720 per year. At that rate I would still complete the the CG licensing experience requirements within approximately 4 years.

To stretch that over 10 years (like you are suggesting) would mean that I am clocking in a maximum of 6.5 commercial appraisal hours per week, since that would b 6.5 X 48 X 10 = 3,120 hours.

I just can't see how it would be possible to be clocking in so few billable hours if I'm working full time at a national firm that pays their trainees a (modest) salary for the first year and then puts them on a fee split beginning in the second year.

If you’re working for a firm like BBG and take classes diligently, you should be able to get your CG in 3-4 years. The hours will be the least of your worries - the time off to take classes will be the challenge. Every day you’re in class is a day you’re not billing which will directly impact your income.

 

[gabramovich]

Classes are supposedly harder now, but I really don't agree. If you can't get your CG license after 3-4 years, I'd say it's time to find a new career.

Right - why would I be a trainee for 10 years? That makes neither mathematical nor practical sense, and my impression is that if you're stuck being a trainee and are not on scheduled to complete hours and get certification, whichever firm you're working for will let you go. National firms have a schedule and a relatively set path and period for transitioning from trainee to certified status, and from what I can tell they have no shortage of work to give trainees for hours.

If you’re working for a firm like BBG and take classes diligently, you should be able to get your CG in 3-4 years. The hours will be the least of your worries - the time off to take classes will be the challenge. Every day you’re in class is a day you’re not billing which will directly impact your income.

This makes a lot more sense and this has been my expectation too.

Given how things are going, I will probably complete the advanced classes before I even am hired as a trainee. If I'm allowed to take those tests without having a job, then my plan will be to test for those classes in the next 3 months as well.

Thank you!