ANSI makes me antsy

[Jayjay25]

Use increments of 1/10 of a foot, it’s a cinch!
Does anyone realize that’s 1 13/64th of an inch?
Is a sloped ceiling counted as GLA?
Most market participants see it that way.
Does it count if it’s under the stairs?
Pretty sure that nobody cares.
You didn’t get your loan? the appraiser is to blame.
Let’s see if we can get them all to do things the same.
Maybe we could make all the markets conform,
and then we can make AVMS be the norm. Let’s create more useless regulations on top of the rest,
maybe enforcing the original rules would be best.

 

[sputnam]

There were no 'original rules' regarding how appraisers were supposed to measure and calculate GLA. ANSI Z765 is a standard for doing that. There are others. Some of us have been using the ANSI standard for many, many years. There is no problem with using it... once you get around to learning it. The problem.. if there is one.. will be down the road a few years. Fannie doesn't think that using ANSI will increase the accuracy of your appraisal. Everyone knows that Realtors aren't using ANSI to measure the properties you will use as comparables. But, it's always been true that your measured GLA has differed from the living area reported in MLS. The problem.. for appraisers... will happen when Fannie says...'Why is your square footage different than what was reported when this property was appraised 2 years ago?"

 

[Tim Hicks (Texas)]

It has not affected a thing in this market for the appraiser's already using the ANSI standards for many years any more than the other ways some appraisers measure.

 

[lefty2cox]

It has not affected a thing in this market for the appraiser's already using the ANSI standards for many years any more than the other ways some appraisers measure.

Agreed. Mortgagee instructions regarding living areas for appraisals have always been ANSI-driven. At least since they've been making such mortgage docs available on the internet. Always with the caveat that the market, consistency in comparing and credibility were valid reasons for deviation. So that's nothing new.

The problem with this is that this is just another ugly appendage of the data mining monster. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. The only reason they seem to give for deviation is if the law requires it. The reason there has been such a discrepancy between living areas for different appraisers is that a huge amount of appraisers DON'T measure the property and DON'T verify MLS information. They flat out DON'T reconcile. Why?...well, that's a separate discussion.

If the goal of this was to create integrity in the data, credibility, etc... the users of mortgage appraisals would just hire competent appraisers and lose the trash. It's not like it's tough to figure out who sucks.

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

Mortgagee instructions regarding living areas for appraisals have always been ANSI-driven. At least since they've been making such mortgage docs available

What??? Who requires ANSI?

 

[lefty2cox]

What??? Who requires ANSI?

I didn't say "required". I said "ANSI-Driven". FNMA's requirement has been mostly in lock-step with ANSI for many years...with precedence placed on consistency for comparison. Meaning that without the ability to tease out certain things in comparables, strict adherence would lead to a misleading result. Things like the inclusion or exclusion of 2 story foyers were left to the appraiser as long as the consistency was maintained with comparables. (There's plenty of debate on how to handle that one) My point is, even with the advancement in technology and the availability of data, teasing this out in comparables will still prove difficult and is more likely to lead to misleading results.

My second point was that most appraisers I come in contact with have never read FNMA's selling guide, their mortgage letters, or even heard the word "ANSI". I've reviewed reports where appraisers never measured, used the field card numbers, and inadvertently included or excluded porches as living area. I don't know how many times I've heard "well that's how I was taught". I recently had an appraisal done on my own house and the appraiser never measured. No laser, no tape....nothing.

 

[shrubberyvaluation]

I didn't say "required". I said "ANSI-Driven". FNMA's requirement has been mostly in lock-step with ANSI for many years...with precedence placed on consistency for comparison. Meaning that without the ability to tease out certain things in comparables, strict adherence would lead to a misleading result. Things like the inclusion or exclusion of 2 story foyers were left to the appraiser as long as the consistency was maintained with comparables. (There's plenty of debate on how to handle that one) My point is, even with the advancement in technology and the availability of data, teasing this out in comparables will still prove difficult and is more likely to lead to misleading results.

My second point was that most appraisers I come in contact with have never read FNMA's selling guide, their mortgage letters, or even heard the word "ANSI". I've reviewed reports where appraisers never measured, used the field card numbers, and inadvertently included or excluded porches as living area. I don't know how many times I've heard "well that's how I was taught". I recently had an appraisal done on my own house and the appraiser never measured. No laser, no tape....nothing.

Hopefully that appraiser had appraised your property before and measured it. What source did they claim to use for the measurements?

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

inclusion or exclusion of 2 story foyers were left to the appraiser as long as the consistency was maintained with comparables

I never knew an assessor nor appraiser to include a "great room" nor foyer as 2 stories. Is that common in your market? As for measurements, I frequently only confirm what the assessor has, and if they have a glass enclosed porch or frame enclosed porch as GLA, I take that out. But most assessors recognize those for what they are. This is the one I inspected yesterday and they were dead to nuts on this old house.

 

[lefty2cox]

Hopefully that appraiser had appraised your property before and measured it. What source did they claim to use for the measurements?

They didn't report a source. It was for a mortgage destined for the secondary market. My inference, in this case, would be personal measurements...but non occurred.

 

[lefty2cox]

I never knew an assessor nor appraiser to include a "great room" nor foyer as 2 stories. Is that common in your market? As for measurements, I frequently only confirm what the assessor has, and if they have a glass enclosed porch or frame enclosed porch as GLA, I take that out. But most assessors recognize those for what they are. This is the one I inspected yesterday and they were dead to nuts on this old house.

View attachment 60625

Depending on the platform the assessors are using, in my area, they may or may not have the ability or knowledge about the property to carve out a two-story foyer from the living area. Or, they may value a 2 story foyer similar to its value as living area...therefore considering it a wash.

For example, they will often adjust the size of an area in order to apply the same $/sf to all finished areas for valuation. We have to remember they're data is designed to be utilized in mass appraisal for the equitable distribution of taxes, not necessarily for appraisers to utilize in the sales comparison approach. Frankly, none of our sources were made for us specifically...which is why the phrase "collect, VERIFY, and analyze" appears so much in USPAP.

Other areas that can trip you up if you don't personally measure are porch conversions. It is not uncommon around here for porches to be converted to living space. Assuming permitting took place, it could take up to 3 years for it to hit the card. Often, it never does as the assessor is often denied entry.

In summary...I'd put the assessing data at about 75% to 80 % around here, if you factor in any mistakes, rouge offices, and dated information.