Basement Garage Without Any Partition Walls

[Dorrie Klatt]

Hello Everyone-

I am doing an FHA appraisal with a garage that is located in the basement. When you pull into the "garage" area, there are not any partition walls to separate it from the rest of the basement, just one big open area.

I was going to write it up with two options:

1.) enclose the "garage" area with fireproof drywall to separate it from the rest of the basement

or

2.) Eliminate the garage door and therefore the "garage area" and put some other type of access doors where the garage door used to be.

What do you all think??

As always, thanks for any advice ahead of time !!

Dorrie

 

[larryhaskell]

Dorrie:

I don't believe it's your job to decide how it should be finished. Without knowing all of the details of the basement such as heating, plumbing, electrical, etc., I would consider appraising it as a garage (# depends on the garage door opening) with storage. It wouldn't be finished basement even if it's heated because it isn't separated from the garage by a wall constructed to code.

 

[Dorrie Klatt]

Larry-

Thanks for your response! As to "finishes" I was thinking in the line of when you have a basement garage that is already partitioned from the rest of the basement by some type of walls (concrete block, brick, frame, etc) I thought FHA called for fireproof drywall walls and ceiling and also a steel or fireproof access door (if there is one) to the basement area for safety and health issues due to exhaust and possible fire hazard from the vehicle. If there was a problem in the basement garage area, these finishes would hopefully contain fumes or fire from spreading to the main living area.

Going off that line of reasoning, I didn't think you could have a vehicle stored in a basement that was completely open due to those possible hazards.....that's where the elimination of the garage door idea came into play.......

What do you think ??

Dorrie

 

[TC]

If I were you I would check with the local HUD rep or get on their website. I seem to recall that the furnace must be separated by a fire wall from the garage area. But I could be wrong.

I have run into that situation in non-FHA appraisals and local codes in one township forced the owner to enclose the furnace or build a fire wall.

Where's Ben V when you need him!!! :lol:

HUD LINK
http://www.HUD.gov/offices/hsg/sfh/ref/chap1.cfm


TC

 

[Farm Gal]

Dorrie:

This was handled in a fairly extensive thread started by Paull Ness MAI, who was attempting to sell his personal residence:

I will summarize, but reading the full thread is instructive...

Local HUD ofices used to have such requirements, but they were never in the 4150... Now that we have upgraded to the 4150.2 there is still no specific refence to such a installation. Tech support for your area is the court of last resort when you have a question... until it gets to civil that is.. 8O

HUD personell inform appraisers that HUD is not in the business of code enforcement, so even if the local codes require some item, it is not the appraisers place to require updating the house to current code....

Now here's the catch. We appraisers are supposed to make note of "other health and safety concerns" under VC-11g. The arguements pro and con as regards firewall installation were discussed extensively in the thread I mentioned.

MY PERSONAL analysis (read the thread for why) is that "No, the installation of a 1 hour (or what-EVER) firebreak is NOT a HUD/FHA requirement." I would therefore NOT make it a VC requirement (my opinion ONLY).

But as pointed out by many posters to that same thread: if there were later a fire and someone was injured: you could be held accountable... your livelihood COULD be at stake...

MY PERSONAL analysis is that we take that risk of later lawsuit with every single FHA appraisal we perform. FOR ANY AND EVRYTHING THAT MIGHT EVER GO WRONG WITH A HOUSE!!! By that same theory any wiring, plumbing mechanical structural defect at all could result in a lawsuit.... no house is perfect.

HUD does not require updating of electrical systems to code, does not require in fact other than a very specific list of observed defects to be remedied. Read the book (4150.2, FAQ's and notices), if it ain't in 'em, it ain't required... except: whisper this line for all those things which fall under observed health and safety issues not mentioned which means... Um can YOU tell me what that means?

I chose to note for my self protection discussions of this nature, their locations, print the most germain, inclusive of notes of telephone discussions with Tech support dated and crossrefenced to specific files, and toss it into a date organized file I label FHA - DEFENSE.

The early on analysis of the orignal inquiror:

MAN I hope you guys get combat pay for these things!

Here are the links to the two threads

http://appraisersforum.com/forums/viewtopi...ighlight=garage

http://appraisersforum.com/forums/viewtopi...arage+fire+wall

one states teh original problem, the second the resolution...

 

[Ben Vukicevich SRA]

TC,

I'm always around. 8O 8O


Dorrie,

The idea of eliminating the garage use in the basement is good but it may not be what the buyer expects. I think you would have to put forth your proposition to eliminate the garage to the buyer via the RE broker since the buyer is obviously expecting a garage. The agreement of sale may have to be modified and signed by the buyer so that he is aware that there will be no garage when he takes possession of the property. If it's OK with the buyer, the removal of the basement overhead garage door maybe the cheapest way to solve the problem.

If you've read the posts that Lee Ann has linked to, then you know my feelings on the matter, if you've read my posts in that thread.

Car in a garage=fire hazard. I believe your initial post is correct. I would require the walls to be installed and sheetrocked, along with the garage ceiling under the living areas, with fireproof sheetrock (Type X, I believe). The fireproof garage door from the garage to the dwelling is also a good idea-no sense fireproofing the garage and then placing a hollow-core wood door in that spot.

So to me, you are correct in your repair requirement, at least in the HOC that I operate in, which is Philadelphia. You may wish to call your HOC for guidance. And for heaven's sake, write down the name of the person that tells you what to do, so you have it for a future reference in your file.


Ben

 

[TC]

Local requirements in my area require that the furnace be enclosed. The idea being that fumes from the car (carbon dioxide) may be passed thru the vents.

TC

 

[Dorrie Klatt]

Hello Everyone-

Wanted to thank everyone for their response and advice. We had put this question to the REAC and actually got a phone call from the Washington DC office with their answer!

The garage area MUST BE separated from the living area. Even though the local building codes may or may not address this issue and even though it is not specifically addressed in the 4150.2 handbook, HUD does consider it a Health and Safety issue. Their biggest concern was the fact that carbon dioxide could enter in the living areas of the home. It is to be addressed under VC-11G.

If anyone is interested, the woman we spoke to was a Ms. Fletcher and can be reached at 202-708-2121 x4596.

Thanks again everybody and hope this helps anyone else with the same question....

Dorrie

 

[Farm Gal]

Dorrie:

Congraulations! You got an answer! You were proactive and did what has to be done! :usa lympic: :usa

Please do not fail to note that you got this answer at this time speaking to that person in YOUR HOC. Other answers may vary 8O

Do not fail to note that asking the very same question at some time in the (fairly) recent past I got the OPPOSITE 8O answer by calling MY local HOC (Denver) ~ I consider this to be a problem: NO-where is/was this issue addressed directly in writing or by reference: unless a fairly recent determination was made (as a result of the original thread). I still find no specific written mention of this issue in HUD Documentation!!!!

If this sounds like a scream approaching jet engine decible level you got it!

I can happily live with this answer that you got in your area at this time.

Ummm however not to throw ice water on your efforts... but: May I point out that you are not finished? What sort of drywall? door, etc...

I am going to post Paul's resolution for anyone too time pressed to look it up as it further makes my point: WE are given NO direction in application of these unwritten rules that we are supposed to GUESS exist in the first place :evil: !

For those following my drywall saga...
I got an email reply from Gerry Glavey, the director of HUD in Phili who said..."on an existing property, HUD/FHA requires that there be a wall separating the garage area from other areas of the property. However, we do not have minimum standards with respect to the fire-rated drywall".

So, to paraphrase an infamous president, it all depends on what the definition of the word 'wall' is. 8)

We have finally received a copy of the VC sheet and found out it also calls for the wall to be drywalled between the living area and garage, makes sense. I have placed a call to the appraiser to find out his personal specs on the drywall, since HUD has none and neither does our municipality, so we can get appropriate repair quotes. {snip irrelevancies} I believe the appraiser should let us know what he is going to require when he reinspects. I sure don't want to spend the money and not have it suit the appraiser. {snip}

some of the 'irelevancies' involved the appraiser NOT calling Mr. Ness back: what a surprise (I am not throwing blame here-other than at the system).

So we have two HOCs that say: "Yes, required" One that says: "No, not required" and no indication in writing ANYWHERE that tells us that this is a requirement! You the appraiser are supposed to pick it up by osmosis ! It all depends on what the meaning of 'is' is?!?!?

Oh BTW you can be reviewed and possibly sanctioned for your lack of knowlege of this unwritten SAFETY rule.... :x

SO is updating of antiquated but functional electrical, plumbing, and OTHER structural systems REQUIRED? Stair height to tread ratios? WHY NOT? $$ Time intrusiveness? What are the citeria for application?

If this other "bring it up to code" IS a requirement - sometimes - sort of - it depends :evil: :evil: :evil: Which other safety items SHOULD we be applying :? .

I probably have more code and safety items memorized that the typical appraiser: worked in San Mateo County CA when their building codes (and their rogue inspectors) made many builders' jobs a nightmare of conflicting and unwritten compliance issues.

To what extent should I apply my hard earned knowlege to FHA when they on one hand insist that we be the eyes in the field, and are NOT to apply unreasonable barriers to loan acquistion ("do it by the book only"), except by the way we have these unwritten rooles? nfire:


rant mode off

 

[Dorrie Klatt]

Lee Ann:

I love your posts !! And thanks......although you are right, there are still some unanswered questions as to specifics. I got off the phone with the HUD rep and of course at that point thought of twenty other questions I should have asked !!

And I agree, it is the answer for the problem AT THIS POINT IN TIME. Who knows what it will be next week...... :roll:

Anyway, I think at the end of this day, and it's only Monday, I'll treat myself to a !

Take care all........

Dorrie