Does HUD have specific regulations on bedroom size?

[jay trotta]

So the entire property must meet IRC codes, or just where it might impact the labeling of a room? How long do you spend on each assignment reviewing IRC codes and ensuring your subject meets those? Do you have any "sources" other than AI that reveal where lenders "require bedrooms to meet the local building code standards"? Are those lender requirements restricted to just the labeling of rooms?

IMO- over the years when a lender asked for zoning compliance, I would incorporate local building practice and Health & Safety compliance under the zoning compliance umbrella. I probably spent more time than others on the issue, but in my area, most municipalities require the septic to meet the bedroom count for tank size & leeching design. That was how my Fee was determined and did not over the years lose any business for being through and had very few call backs.
BR size in older housing was determined for the era in which it was built and over the years it has been expanded. IMO-every time building inspectors, health inspectors etc. change over time in a municipality, there is generally new compliance issue's that evolve. Therefore, BR size may change with the times, I would think that is part of a zoning compliance issue.

Just a thought or two

PS: you may want to check HUD/ADA compliance to see if that's where they determine BR size in that section. It may answer the question directly there. ADA compliance pushes municipal zoning in a slightly different direction for compliance issue's.

 

[TerryRohrer]

IMO- over the years when a lender asked for zoning compliance, I would incorporate local building practice and Health & Safety compliance under the zoning compliance umbrella. I probably spent more time than others on the issue, but in my area, most municipalities require the septic to meet the bedroom count for tank size & leeching design. That was how my Fee was determined and did not over the years lose any business for being through and had very few call backs.
BR size in older housing was determined for the era in which it was built and over the years it has been expanded. IMO-every time building inspectors, health inspectors etc. change over time in a municipality, there is generally new compliance issue's that evolve. Therefore, BR size may change with the times, I would think that is part of a zoning compliance issue.

Just a thought or two

PS: you may want to check HUD/ADA compliance to see if that's where they determine BR size in that section. It may answer the question directly there. ADA compliance pushes municipal zoning in a slightly different direction for compliance issue's.

I don't care much what anyone does, but I think consistency matters. If you are going to pluck a single provision from the IRC and stand on that one provision, why not all the others? Arbitrary is worse than misleading. Around here, permits and building codes don't matter much to anyone. And for older properties, zoning compliance is an impossible can of worms when you get to the minutiae, as many properties existed before zoning and building codes became prevalent. I learned the hard way in about 1992. I was appraising a rural dwelling that had a single entry (beside the wood stove) and none of the windows met egress standards at the time. I called the state and I called the county and all indicated that, even though everyone required compliance with building codes, no one enforces anything outside incorporated communities. And buyers, sellers, agents, and lenders don't care. It is not the place of appraisers to "correct" those parties. I point out those issues I think matter and they can make their own decisions.

 

[Sandra Koutsopoulos]

...and even sometimes even when you're right, you're wrong.
Many years ago I appraised a SFR in a subdivision, and it had a pile of dog manure 4' high and 8' across. Also, the drywall ceiling in the laundry room was incomplete, leaving a gaping hole to the attic. It was a flip.
It was an FHA appraisal. I called it out, requiring removal of the poop, and completion of the ceiling. Agent had a fit. Despite that lender being my primary source of income at the time, they blacklisted me and I never got another order from them, and that's been probably 20 years now. Lesson: Diversify your clientele; never let one lender be your life or death source of income. Hard lesson, but I survived.

 

[jay trotta]

I don't care much what anyone does, but I think consistency matters. If you are going to pluck a single provision from the IRC and stand on that one provision, why not all the others? Arbitrary is worse than misleading. Around here, permits and building codes don't matter much to anyone. And for older properties, zoning compliance is an impossible can of worms when you get to the minutiae, as many properties existed before zoning and building codes became prevalent. I learned the hard way in about 1992. I was appraising a rural dwelling that had a single entry (beside the wood stove) and none of the windows met egress standards at the time. I called the state and I called the county and all indicated that, even though everyone required compliance with building codes, no one enforces anything outside incorporated communities. And buyers, sellers, agents, and lenders don't care. It is not the place of appraisers to "correct" those parties. I point out those issues I think matter and they can make their own decisions.

As the old saying goes, Different Strokes - for Different Folks and perhaps why nationwide differences exist. Time spent on an assignment is relative to the area in which you/we work and how you set your Fee, IMO

 

[TerryRohrer]

As the old saying goes, Different Strokes - for Different Folks and perhaps why nationwide differences exist. Time spent on an assignment is relative to the area in which you/we work and how you set your Fee, IMO

I don't see how the fee or time spent on an assignment has any bearing on the subject at hand. I knew an appraiser who produced 250+ page commercial reports that included about two paragraphs of useful information, and always rubberstamped the requested value, all for a high fee. I prefer to focus on analysis and reporting of things that matter and let others quibble over the minutiae.

 

[Lil Rhody]

I have been searching for the answer and have not been able to locate it in the HUD 4000.1 handbook. I have a lender pushing back on a room that I labeled and considered an office stating it is a bedroom and they want it changed to such. This is a very rural area with no building codes. Bedroom counts don't really matter once there are at least 2. This room was small in my opinion and I considered it an office and not a 3rd bedroom. It does have a window. They even asked for a ROV with the number of bedrooms being the reason. I stated in the report that the number of bedrooms in this market is not as important to a buyer as GLA and that the room has been given an adjustment in the GLA section of the gridline. Any idea on where to find the info?

I am pretty familiar with the 4000.1 and I do not know of any specific verbiage that addresses minimum bedroom size. HUD does require that dwelling meet local building codes or national building codes, like the IRC. The IRC (International Residential Code) requires a bedroom to have no less than 70 square feet. If the local building code is more restrictive than that, the dwelling needs to conform to the local code, if not, the 70 square foot code applies.
Like other here have mentioned, there are additional considerations aside from the size, with egress and septic capacity being a few.

 

[lostinthezone]

I am pretty familiar with the 4000.1 and I do not know of any specific verbiage that addresses minimum bedroom size. HUD does require that dwelling meet local building codes or national building codes, like the IRC. The IRC (International Residential Code) requires a bedroom to have no less than 70 square feet. If the local building code is more restrictive than that, the dwelling needs to conform to the local code, if not, the 70 square foot code applies.

I'm only aware of that for some new construction and improvements to existing construction for program like the 203K. Can you point towards the requirement to meet local building codes or the IRC for just existing construction in the 4000.1? I'd love to have the citation around that....

 

[Zoe]

I am not like OP in that situation. I would call FHA directly and get confirmation from somebody that is employed by FHA.

If it happens to me in the future, I would call HUD/FHA directly and notify the lender and the real estate agent know how it is according to HUD/FHA. I would document it all in the workfile. Would request email if possible from person with FHA.

 

[Lil Rhody]

I'm only aware of that for some new construction and improvements to existing construction for program like the 203K. Can you point towards the requirement to meet local building codes or the IRC for just existing construction in the 4000.1? I'd love to have the citation around that....

This post made me go back and investigate and I think you are correct, this requirement only applies to new construction or improvements made to a property using HUD programs like a 203K. I could not find any reference that this would apply to existing construction. Thank you for the investigative push!!

 

[Zoe]

This post made me go back and investigate and I think you are correct, this requirement only applies to new construction or improvements made to a property using HUD programs like a 203K. I could not find any reference that this would apply to existing construction. Thank you for the investigative push!!

HUD has other physical characteristics that are required but the real estate agent would not be upset at this appraiser for calling it an office if the real estate agent owns this property, and they have been advertising it as a bedroom.

Again, if appraiser sees no difference in value, just label it a bedroom on revised report.