Motion Computing Ls800

[Ed Woodruff SRA]

Hi, Robert. I just started using the Tablet version of Apex and it works great. I prefer my PDA for most houses, but when doing those really big houses - 4,000 to 10,000 square footers, you can't beat the tablet. I use a Fujitsu. I noticed it was not on your preferred list, but it is an excellent machine. I have the Verizon aircard in it, and I can do everything a notebook can do and more.

 

[Robert Smoote]

Hi, Ed, and thank you for the kind words on Apex! If you like this version, wait'll you see the next one...

On the Fujitsu thing, the current line sort of fell out of favor when their outdoor screen quality dropped between the ST4000 series and the ST5000 series - just when Motion increased their screen quality. Beyond selling the Fujitsu line, we like and use a few Fujitsu units ourselves, and it is good stuff - it's just that right now, most of our customers seem to prefer the Motion products. We are also a little behind on our web page and info on Tablets. We're just entering the last two weeks of an office expansion, so our Web and IT people have their hands full getting a few dozen machines tested/configured for deployment, new servers burned in, new phone system and a whole host of little things... we want to have everything done in time for the first day of business in 2006. From the way it looks right now, we won't have new web stuff up until sometime after mid-January as we have a lot to get done between the expansion and the a la mode show in January. Hopefully, sometime in late January, all the web stuff will be fully switched over and Jeff will be able to put up info on new equipment.

 

[josephdifranco]

I can weigh in on one product. I have the hp4200, someone referred to earlier. Screen is a small problem in the sun, but I turn my back and its ok. I added 2gb ram at tigerdirect.com and wound up at $1800 before tax.

Someone asked about accessories, and I'll need to add a car charger and likely will want as a luxury to have a base, so add around $250??

I tend to go middle of the road on almost everything I buy, never the cheapest, never overkill. The 4200 weighs 4.5 pounds, not bad. Its small enough for me to change the orientation of the screen and view the screen just like when its on the table. In wintotal, when I float the text database, the screen is very big and workable.

It was also highly rated in consumer reports or some other major publication.

I should point out that the keyboard is mainly useful for my non appraisal use of the system, i.e. coffee shops, internet surfing at night. A true tablet may be superior for dedicated appraisal work. Trade off the keyboard for a thinner, lighter system. For me, I just had to have the keyboard built in and had to have the option of typing. For non field appraisal typing, I'm using a full keyboard.

Robert, I think, has the only product built for tablets and sketching, so good job to everyone at Apex! There are some tablet sketching options I would pay for to see in the future. I'd like to be able to draw two separate areas simultaneously, and I'd like to be able to draw a wall out of sequence. The more the software can mimick what we did with pens in the field...

Happy hunting,

 

[Norman White]

Robert

Thanks for your informed information. With what I am reading so far, because of wet weather conditions here in Oregon, and with my intent to use the computer for input of appraisal information from our prior inspection (with my assistant) on the road to our next appointment, I am guessing that a table may not be my best choice. A lap top would likely be the best for my purposes along with a hand held. From what I read the HP 4700 would likely be a good choise for the inspection portion.

Lap Tops: I am thinking of having my computer expert, who takes care of my current equipment, put together a lap top for me. I can more than likely get more for my money that buying a brand name. He will guarantee it for one year. If I go this direction, what should the specs be? Processor, hard drive, screen size, CD drive, blue tooth, Wi Fi, etc. All suggestions welcome on specs and/or other opinions. Thanks in advance.

 

[Robert Smoote]

Joseph:
Thanks for the kind words. Keep the ideas coming... As you know, we don't discuss future products in a public forum, but I can say that I believe you'll like what we've got going in the next version... For the record, I was against Randy's plan to release MSTT for free, but as time goes on, I see why he put so much emphasis on getting what we had already written out and in use. He, and now I, have tremendous faith in our users to tell us what they want to see in the next version.

Norman:
Glad to help in any way that I can! I did not mean to indicate that you cannot use a tablet in the field. It is just a matter of cost, though, as there are a few devices that have all-weather capabilities. That being said, there are also a few cases that might work for you which provide protection from "incidental" moisture. However, be aware that in extreme cold, hard drives and screens can have problems. Our Toughbooks have automatic heaters to warm the hard drives when the temp drops to about 35 degrees and the screens are built differently from most consumer-grade products... devices like this are meant to be reliable in a much wider range of environments than the ones designed for office temps and occasional weather. As you know, a true ruggedized device tends to cost more than the indoor types. Most stuff you see advertised doesn't even measure up to the "semi-rugged" devices, but for most people they can do fine if you just take care not to expose them to really harsh conditions.

Anyway, you might want to compare the name brands and their warranties, availability of drop protection and all that before you "go generic." There is a lot to be said for having a live body - i.e. a real person - to deal with, but sometimes, the small guy just can't compete in the cost/benefit ratio department. What I mean is to check prices and weigh things carefully. There are a few semi-rugged laptops out there that just might be worth the (small) extra price as they are designed to take a little rough and tumble, but aren't "hardened" to work for military/firefighter type duty. Heck, even the excellent X41 has stuff that protects the hard drive if the device is bumped or (say) thrown into the back seat. Plus, it has a pretty good "standard" screen - that is, it has an anti-glare treatment which works well... a lot of laptops have gone to the "glossy" type screen since that makes them look sexier when on the shelves next to their competitors in a store. While you may not take this laptop out of the car while inspecting, being in the car, your assistant will still have to deal with sunlight conditions. Plus, the X41 is a tablet PC, so you COULD take it with you on the inspection when weather permits... Think about it.

As far as basic "specs" for a notebook/tablet, what we are hearing from our customers that a 20GB drive is about the minimum and what we're seeing from their ordering patterns (and also from feedback after the sale), there is usually a "sweet spot" - i.e. the 30GB option is something like a $79 upgrade at time of order, where the 40GB drive is (say) $350. Exactly how much HDD space you "need" is largely determined by whether this machine will be used as a "main machine" or more of a Mobile/occasional use" machine. I would think that, using the aforementioned example, the 30GB choice is the BB4TB choice. I am always a bit surprised when people pay a lot of money to max out a machine when it is not necessary, yet complain about a $100 software upgrade... Doesn't seem to make sense to me. On RAM, generally we are seeing that the BB4TB is between 512MB and 768MB/1GB... Once you go above 1GB, the price tends to skyrocket. Some software programs need more RAM, but I think you'll find that 512MB should do it, but most of us recommend the 768MB-1GB range, just to be safe. Don't get too worried about the "processor speed" - a good Centrino certified laptop is faster that you might think when comparing older desktop systems. For example, we benchmarked a 1.6GHz Centrino Tablet PC against a 2.8GHz desktop a year ago. The Tablet was new, the desktop about 1.5 years old. The Tablet blew away the desktop is all areas except HDD access time - laptop drives are slower than most desktop machines. But, the overall "seat of the pants" feel was that the laptop was faster than the desktop. It is not the simple CPU GHz rating that is the most important - it is HOW all the components work TOGETHER. When you see a machine that has the Centrino badge, it is not referring to the CPU, it is referring to the fact that the individual components of the computer have met the spec to earn the Centrino badge. That is, they work together properly and you get a faster feeling system that also doesn't eat up the battery as fast. Anyway, the speed of the CPU isn't all that important, so if you like a system that has a 1.2GHz processor with a Centrino rating, it is probably a better choice than 1 2.0GHz system that does not have a Centrino rating. On screens, just remember that bigger is not always better. Look at the screen resolution. A 12" screen at 1024 x 768 will be MUCH easier to read (especially out of the sterile office) than (say) a 14" screen at 1600x1050 or similar. Plus, most Tablets use a 1024x768 resolution as the "standard" - the ones with larger screens and higher resolutions are generally more "desktop replacement" type machines and are very heavy by comparison.

On the Pocket PC, we recommend the HP hx4700 or hx4705 as our hands down favorite device.

On the wireless question, we recommend devices with Bluetooth so that you can use them with a DISTO Plus, wireless headsets and the like. Though this is not a requirement, it's nice to have it IF you decide to use it at some point. Usually, Bluetooth is either built in or a very low cost option. On the WiFi thing, a lot of people seem to really think this is a "must have" as they use it to connect with their network back at the office/home vs. a wired network connection. IF your machine has a "docking station", then it's not such a big deal - it's just really more of a "convenience" thing. WiFi is slower than a wired connection, but is IS convenient. Also, please be aware that both Bluetooth and WiFi are "radios", and when they are on, it uses additional power. WiFi is much more power hungry that Bluetooth. Randy tells us that the next Bluetooth (v2.x, out now) is faster AND more miserly on power usage. The WiFi stuff out now is relatively short range - i.e. in hundreds of feet at best, so don't think that if you have WiFi, you'll be able to connect to something like you can with a cell phone. THAT type of WiFi IS coming, but we won't see it in common use for another couple of years.

Hope this helps!

 

[wyecoyote]

Has anyone used the TC1100 from HP? My laptop is about to die on me a painfull death. Was thinking about getting just a regular desk top. But was looking into a Tablet PC. Any appraisers use only a Tablet? Also if you get a desk top can you sink a tablet to it much like you can a Pocket PC? Or do you have to set up a network and transfer files back and forth?

Norman,

I use the HP 4705 for inspections with ACI and Mobile Sketch. I hate when I have to go back to paper for inspections. It does help out though took some getting used to. The ACI version is like the old DOS version for the forms. It only has the forms and picture pages. You don't have an addendum page. Problem I do have is every now and then it will drop some comments or lose information about the subject in the 4700. Once in awhile not often. You have to rethink your way of inspections though and it does take a little more time not much.

Like you I am concerned about the weather effect on the Tablet to much rain or cold weather.

 

[Robert Smoote]

Ryan:

FWIW, we have a tc1100 which we occasionally use in development, and it performs admirably. According to Randy, the tc1100 was a much better device than the previous model (can't remember the model number) - much better than the specs would indicate. Unlike most tablets, the tc1100 has a "hard glass" screen, versus the somewhat "spongy" screens used in almost every other Tablet PC (except true ruggedized units.) It also uses a digitizing pad underneath the glass which is different from 99% of the others. Almost every other Tablet PC uses the "Wacom" digitizing panel as this was in the original specs/requirements from Microsoft to get the Tablet PC logo. Anyway, the tc1100 also has an anti-glare treatment applied to the screen which made it better than most "non-outdoor" screens. In today's world, it seems to be about average or maybe slightly better than most indoor units. Several early adopter type customers told us that the tc1100 performed adequately when used outdoors. The trick was to not expect it to work in direct or glaring sun. They told us that MOST of the time, they are underneath the eaves or overhangs and thus not in direct sun. Further, when confronted with especially bright conditions, all they had to do was to turn their back to the sun and let their own shadow fall across the screen to help viewability. Now, remember, this was when outdoor screen Tablet PC's were mostly a rarity and quite costly, so they were "defending" the (say) $2,000 tc1100 against the (say) $3,500 ruggedized units with outdoor screens. Basically, what they were telling us is that even though they originally said they wanted outdoor screens, drop protection, extreme weather protection, etc., they had a hard time paying an extra (est.) $1,500 for this sort of thing. When it came down to price, they felt like the (say) $2,000 was more "in their league."

Now, in today's world, the Motions have gotten better (especially with regard to their screens, weight, and battery life) and the Fujitsu's have gotten a little less expensive, though their outdoor screens are unfortunately not as good as they used to be. So, what you have is the tc1100 at about $1,650 - $1,850 vs. a Motion LE1600 for about $2,200, and with a Motion, you can upgrade it to an outdoor screen at time of order for about $300. The Fujitsu slates are about that same price, maybe slightly higher. The Fujitsu "convert-able" (the only convertable commonly available with an outdoor screen) is about $1,900 - $2,200 with outdoor screen, 512MB RAM, etc., etc., etc. All of these are superior to the tc1100 in terms of the pure computer specs, but YMMV on that topic. The tc1100 is all but completely removed from HP's site so that should tell you something.

All this said, the tc1100 was a better machine than most people gave it credit for "in it's day" - just a bit ahead of it's time and not sexy enough to grab a lot of media attention.

Also, you might want to look at the X41 convertable - it has a really decent screen (not outdoor, but anti-glare, and probably better overall than the tc1100's) and you can find those for something in the $2,000 range depending on the specs. Randy says this is a first class machine for what it is. It feels about as light as my LE1600, but that may just be perception vs. fact.

Finally, if you are interested, you might check with me on what we're going to do with our R&D unit. With all of the other Tablet PC's we have here (20 or 30?), it's probably not being used and I know that Randy has us doing inventory the last week of this year. He has said we need to get rid of a lot of the misc. devices he purchased over the years, from Pocket PC's to Tablets to experimental or "eval" units we bought. Generally speaking, he usually gives this stuff to the employees for their personal use, but with everything he has just recently purchased for us all, I am guessing that what we have now surpasses any of this misc. stuff that has built up over the years, so none of us will want most of it. And, it's too "geeky" to donate to a church or other charitable organization, so he'll probably want us to sell it to someone who could actually use it. i imagine the price would be whatever it is we have it on the books for - i.e. it's depreciated value. Could be a great deal for someone. That being said, the stuff would come in "as is" condition, though we don't have any "junk" or mistreated stuff here.

Let me know if you are interested in our tc1100. if you do, you get "first dibs" - I can't really handle a "bidding" situation on any of this stuff. I'll probably direct Steven and Jeff to coordinate something and post pictures/descriptions on our site once we compile our inventory sheets - probably do a "clearance bin" thing. Additionally, I don't think we can get all this done until after the a la mode show this coming January. If you want it and want to "write it off in 2005", I'll have to handle it manually - i.e. by direct email/phone, but just realize that I am swamped, so I can't spend a bunch of time on something that may actually cost us more in time than we're getting by way of a sale. Once we generate a price, that's it - sort of take it or leave it. Hope this is coming out right... ;-)

Hope this helps!

 

[wyecoyote]

Robert,

Thanks for the information. I was under the impression that the tc1100 has a TFT screen for outdoor viewing. Least that is what I got off the HP website. Have to really search around for it. Also checked with the CompUSA website. Thing I like about it is the weight is light.

Let me know if you are getting rid of it.

For a Tablet I am considering the Slate Models for the weight. Then getting a docking port for a regular keypad and mouse. Long with of course the CD/DVD and larger screen. Have a 19" LCD right now. Along with the 15" from my laptop (running dual monitors).

I want to do some checking and deciding of what to do see if I just want to go with a desk top and a Tablet then create a network and just send or email the files to the desk top.

 

[Robert Smoote]

Ryan:

You've made a common assumption which is largely incorrect. TFT means Thin Film Transistor... somehow, people associated TFT with Transflective, which is the type of screen seen in most modern Pocket PC's. Anyway, just because the screen type is listed as TFT, don't assume it is an outdoor type screen. Most screens on everyday laptops are also TFT these days, but they are not rated for outdoor use. As it is, the screen on a tc1100 is not really an indoor/outdoor screen, regardless of now the marketing folks try to spin it. It DOES, though have a pretty good anti-glare treatment and that wonderful "hard glass" element. If you were to compare, say, a tc1100 to a Motion with their View Anywhere screen option, you'd see what I mean. No comparison when outdoors... As I said, though, a lot of early adopters tell us that they found their tc1000 screens to be OK, and the tc1100 is a much better machine in that regard and just about every other category.

As for weight, I'll have to weigh our actual units to verify this, but according to the specs, the tc1100 (10.4" screen) weighs 3.1 lbs - 4 lbs (w/keyboard). The LE1600 (12.1" screen) weighs 3.13 lbs - probably a bit over 4 lbs with keyboard/cover, as theirs is more substantial. The LS800 (8.4" screen) weighs 2.2 lbs. The X41 (12.1" screen) weighs 3.5 lbs including keyboard, which BTW is VASTLY superior to the HP clip-on or Motion thing. The add-on keyboards for the slates are a compromise for weight, etc. The weight for the Fujitsu ST5xxx series is 3.5 lbs (no keyboard) and the screen drops from 12." to 10.4" when you get the indoor/outdoor option. Even so, their indoor/outdoor screen for the ST5xxx series is not as good as their legendary ST4xxx's screen. Our ST4020 is one Tablet PC we will NOT be parting with - it has a true Transflective screen. The best we've seen except for a few ruggedized units. The Fujitsu convertable unit, the T4020 is a brick at 4.5 lbs. but their indoor/outdoor screen is 12.1"...

Anyway, the point is that the tc1100 is not HEAVY as far as some units go, but the Motion LE1600 is arguably just as light AND has a better screen and better overall features. If you want to go really light, the LS800 is, what?, 70% the weight of the tc1100?

As far as our tc1100, I am sure it will go - we only have 10 programmers in our San Antonio office and even with our individual users in QA and people like me who show stuff on the road, 20 or 30 Tablets is probably too many. Besides, we also seem to have a constant stream of stuff Randy runs through here, either prototypes or engineering samples, not to mention new stuff about to hit the market. What I am saying is that we try not to get too attached to technology items here as they have a short life cycle. Quite honestly, I had forgotten we even had a tc1100 until I saw your post and it reminded me that Randy said we are cleaning stuff out during our expansion, when 15 or so of us move into the new space downstairs.

If you can play with one at a store, ask the manager to accompany you outside with it so you can see how it works outside. If you like it, you may want to see what we'll sell it for as a good deal. If it is not the price, but the weight that is your main consideration, then the LE1600 is a contender, but then so is the X41 as they are both "light" per the definition. The X41 is only 0.4 lbs heavier than the tc1100 and LE1600, but is lighter than either of them when you include the keyboard, and the X41's keyboard blows away the tc1100's and the Motion's.

Hope this helps!

 

[2008 KC Royals]

Ryan,I have a tc1100 and it is the only computer I use for appraising. I love the design I just wish hp would continue to develop it. It is by far the best designed tablet I have used but spec wise it is getting behind the times a bit. I use it with the hp field case so I don't have to worry about rain or dropping it. The screen is fine in the sun if you turn your back.