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Possible changes coming to M&S?

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VolcanoLvr

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
Washington
I've heard via various sources that M&S will soon publish new books with their own version of "C" & "Q" ratings & definitions to better coincide with the GSE UAD process.

Have any of you heard more about this, or even if it is true?

I presume you do know that the GSE's chose not to use the typical words in M&S for for condition and quality, because the M&S info is copyrighted. However in the typcial GSE illogic, they ban those words on form page 2 while still encouraging them to be used for Condition on page 1. Does that make sense to anyone??
 
They seem pretty similar to me. To the point where I suspect Fannie Mae did some "borrowing."

Excellent Condition - All items that can normally be repaired or refinished have recently been corrected, such as new roofing, paint, furance overhaul, state of the art components, etc. With no functional inadequacies of any consequence and all major short-lived components in like-new condition, the overall effective age has been substantially reduced upon complete revitilization of the structure regardless of the actual chronological age.

Very Good Condition - All items well maintained, many having been overhauled and repaired as they've showed signs of wear, increasing the life expectancy and lowering the effective age with little deterioration or obsolesence evident with a high degree of utility.

Good Condition - No obvious maintenance required but neither is everything new. Appearance and utility are above the standard and the overall effective age will be lower than the typical property.

Average condition: Some evidence of deferred maintenance and normal obsolescence with age in that a few minor repairs are needed along with some refinishing. But with all major components still functional and contributing toward an extended life expectancy, effective age and utility is standard for like properties of its class and usage.

Fair condition (Badly worn) - Much repair needed. Many items need refinishing or overhauling, deferred maintenance obvious, inadequate building utility and services all shortening the life expectancy and increasing the effective age.


Poor Condition (Worn Out) - Repair and overall needed on painted surfaces, roofing, plumbing, heating, numerous functional inadequacies, substandard utilities etc. (found only in extraordinary circumstances). Excessive deferred maintenance and abuse, limited value-in-use, approaching abandonment or major reconstruction, reuse or change in occupancy is imminent. Effective age is near the end of the scale regardless of the actual chronological age.


C1

The improvements have been very recently constructed and have not previously been occupied. The entire structure and all components are new and the dwelling features no physical depreciation.*

*Note: Newly constructed improvements that feature recycled materials and/or components can be considered new dwellings provided that the dwelling is placed on a 100% new foundation and the recycled materials and the recycled components have been rehabilitated/re-manufactured into like-new condition. Recently constructed improvements that have not been previously occupied are not considered “new” if they have any significant physical depreciation (i.e., newly constructed dwellings that have been vacant for an extended period of time without adequate maintenance or upkeep).

C2

The improvements feature no deferred maintenance, little or no physical depreciation, and require no repairs. Virtually all building components are new or have been recently repaired, refinished, or rehabilitated. All outdated components and finishes have been updated and/or replaced with components that meet current standards. Dwellings in this category either are almost new or have been recently completely renovated and are similar in condition to new construction.

C3

The improvements are well maintained and feature limited physical depreciation due to normal wear and tear. Some components, but not every major building component, may be updated or recently rehabilitated. The structure has been well maintained.

C4

The improvements feature some minor deferred maintenance and physical deterioration due to normal wear and tear. The dwelling has been adequately maintained and requires only minimal repairs to building components/mechanical systems and cosmetic repairs. All major building components have been adequately maintained and are functionally adequate.

C5

The improvements feature obvious deferred maintenance and are in need of some significant repairs. Some building components need repairs, rehabilitation, or updating. The functional utility and overall livability is somewhat diminished due to condition, but the dwelling remains useable and functional as a residence.

C6

The improvements have substantial damage or deferred maintenance with deficiencies or defects that are severe enough to affect the safety, soundness, or structural integrity of the improvements. The improvements are in need of substantial repairs and rehabilitation, including many or most major components.
 
You can write something 'similar' without violating copyright.

But the GSE's couldn't just 'lift' the wording directly out of M&S without getting permission, or paying a fee to do so, which they won't. Thus the proprietary C & R info we deal with.
 
I've heard via various sources that M&S will soon publish new books with their own version of "C" & "Q" ratings & definitions to better coincide with the GSE UAD process.

Have any of you heard more about this, or even if it is true?

I presume you do know that the GSE's chose not to use the typical words in M&S for for condition and quality, because the M&S info is copyrighted. However in the typcial GSE illogic, they ban those words on form page 2 while still encouraging them to be used for Condition on page 1. Does that make sense to anyone??


That is absolutely ridiculous and wrong in every way. Marshall & Swift Ratings come from the market, UAD comes from processing appraisals. Appraisers appraise based upon market information, not something made up in Alice and Wonderland to appraise things in the real world.

You can only infer a rough correlation to some of the Marshall & Swift Ratings and it cuts off and batches all levels of quality under C-1 from excellent to exceptional Class I, Class II, Class III, Class IV, Class V, Class VI.

The C ratings have nothing to do with quality and Marshall & Swift; however, Marshall & Swift combines condition and age to a concept known as Effective Age, which is how I do appraisals.

What we need to do is get rid of the UAD, not try to sanctify it by turning the appraisal process inside out and hass backwards.

If M&S does this, I'll likely have to go to a different costing service, one that deals with the real world; outside of the shadow of the big banks and the GSE's controlled by the big banks and others where the gravitational pull has distorted time, space, reason and logic and is changing our jobs into facilitators and fabricators of fiction that serve the short term bottom line rather being actual appraisers.

UAD is mostly secretarial work, a convention, it is a code that serves someones profit, it has nothing, nothing, nothing to do with appraising, quality or condition. It only creates arbitrary ideas that take a complex world and create a fairy tale of simplicity from it to speed up processing.

The Q & C ratings mean nothing, you only assign those ratings for fantasy land codification after you know the actual quality and condition from the real world.

Lets us not sanctify the ridiculous, because in the process we belittle our profession and knowledge.
 
Yes, but the problem is more with the comps you have not been in and you have to convert Realtor Speak to Fannie for the form and to M&S to explain it to homeowners and other readers of the report.
The multi-lingual translation

Fannie Marshall Realtor Speak
C1 Excellent New
C2 Very good almost new or Renovated
C3 Good Exquisite, Remolded, Really Nice
C4 Average Good, move in condition
C5 Fair Needs TLC, Paint it, Put in new carpet
C6 POOR No comment, cash only, dangerous, mold
 
Hmmm...interesting.

"Marshall & Swift Ratings come from the market"

Truth be known, the M&S 'ratings' are made up words with associated definitions THEY wrote. In a copyrighted document. The GSE's can't just appropriate these for their own use.

Because virtually everything in the universe is based around mathematics, the UAD process now greatly corresponds to that fact. The 'words' M&S decided to use years ago for quality did not have numerical quantities associated. So when the FHFA and the GSE's decided to make virtually the entire GSE appraisal form into a mathematical format, they had to quantify certain aspects with numbers that can be machine read. Thus the C & Q rating numbers we now MUST use (except sometimes on page 1 if the appraiser decides to use the 'banned' words there instead of defining the individual components condition numerically as should be done).

"concept known as Effective Age, which is how I do appraisals"

You and many other appraisers still do that (likely based on our initial training & probably the mentor's unexplained reasoning), even though the GSE's don't really want EA to be used, but currently allow it as a separate line item adjustment.

The problem with EA is it is a fictitious number based entirely on subjective appraiser observations & decisions, not on actual quantified numbers (the Actual Age). Yes, M&S has a neat chart to visualize what EA 'might be' based on their estimation and some descriptions. But EA is based on speculation that improvements have actually been made, or not. And for comparables, probably not actually observed up close and personal by the appraiser.

Unfortunately, the current GSE forms make appraisers 'estimate' the subject EA, and then that magic number is worked in to the depreciation percentage based on straight line acrual using an economic age of 50, 65, 70 or whatever - which is simple, but not realistic for the multiple components in a building that depreciate at different rates. (M&S says so.) However, sometimes simplicity may be easier for laymen, appraisers and underwriters to understand and accept.

Why use an EA adjustment, when the exact same process can be used with the Actual Age? Age, Condition (& EA) all relate to the same aspect on the property. If making adjustments in all those fields on the grid, it's like tripple dipping. Isn't it more realistic to make ONE adjustment for Age only?

Condition is based on observation. In fact, M&S says "Applying any additional condition modifier once the effective age has been established based on condition would be redundant." (This assumes it is correct.) The exact same thing can be said about basing depreciation on Age rather than EA - except that it is more accurate. And the adjustment math is more supportable. Use the % difference in the Age/Life (straight line) depreciation between subject and comp, and multiply that by the sale price to arrive at a dollar adjustment (round to nearest $100).

Establishing an EA is subjective; there is no ONE WAY to do that practiced by EVERY appraiser. (Which is probably why the GSE's prefer it not be used, but tolerate it if done, providing explanation is included. [by the way - do your reports include such an explanation of your adjustment process??]).

I can see why M&S 'might' be making a move to numerically quantify their 'words' used for Quality (Low > Excellent). After all, their 'book' is the most quoted reference for this. But the GSE's guarantee the most loans. So having the two tie together logically makes sense.

But....their explanations in the book for conditions tieing to EA are not quantified numerically (mathematically) as the GSE's have done. So they may need to apply that also.
 
Hmmm...interesting.

"Marshall & Swift Ratings come from the market"

Truth be known, the M&S 'ratings' are made up words with associated definitions THEY wrote. In a copyrighted document. The GSE's can't just appropriate these for their own use.

Because virtually everything in the universe is based around mathematics, the UAD process now greatly corresponds to that fact. The 'words' M&S decided to use years ago for quality did not have numerical quantities associated. So when the FHFA and the GSE's decided to make virtually the entire GSE appraisal form into a mathematical format, they had to quantify certain aspects with numbers that can be machine read. Thus the C & Q rating numbers we now MUST use (except sometimes on page 1 if the appraiser decides to use the 'banned' words there instead of defining the individual components condition numerically as should be done).

"concept known as Effective Age, which is how I do appraisals"

You and many other appraisers still do that (likely based on our initial training & probably the mentor's unexplained reasoning), even though the GSE's don't really want EA to be used, but currently allow it as a separate line item adjustment.

The problem with EA is it is a fictitious number based entirely on subjective appraiser observations & decisions, not on actual quantified numbers (the Actual Age). Yes, M&S has a neat chart to visualize what EA 'might be' based on their estimation and some descriptions. But EA is based on speculation that improvements have actually been made, or not. And for comparables, probably not actually observed up close and personal by the appraiser.

Unfortunately, the current GSE forms make appraisers 'estimate' the subject EA, and then that magic number is worked in to the depreciation percentage based on straight line acrual using an economic age of 50, 65, 70 or whatever - which is simple, but not realistic for the multiple components in a building that depreciate at different rates. (M&S says so.) However, sometimes simplicity may be easier for laymen, appraisers and underwriters to understand and accept.

Why use an EA adjustment, when the exact same process can be used with the Actual Age? Age, Condition (& EA) all relate to the same aspect on the property. If making adjustments in all those fields on the grid, it's like tripple dipping. Isn't it more realistic to make ONE adjustment for Age only?

Condition is based on observation. In fact, M&S says "Applying any additional condition modifier once the effective age has been established based on condition would be redundant." (This assumes it is correct.) The exact same thing can be said about basing depreciation on Age rather than EA - except that it is more accurate. And the adjustment math is more supportable. Use the % difference in the Age/Life (straight line) depreciation between subject and comp, and multiply that by the sale price to arrive at a dollar adjustment (round to nearest $100).

Establishing an EA is subjective; there is no ONE WAY to do that practiced by EVERY appraiser. (Which is probably why the GSE's prefer it not be used, but tolerate it if done, providing explanation is included. [by the way - do your reports include such an explanation of your adjustment process??]).

I can see why M&S 'might' be making a move to numerically quantify their 'words' used for Quality (Low > Excellent). After all, their 'book' is the most quoted reference for this. But the GSE's guarantee the most loans. So having the two tie together logically makes sense.

But....their explanations in the book for conditions tieing to EA are not quantified numerically (mathematically) as the GSE's have done. So they may need to apply that also.


Ok, it looks like you are not familiar with using this concept, so I'll illustrate it side by side with condition C ratings. When you use EA, you don't make a separate condition adjustment on the condition line, the age and condition is combined into one EA on the AGE line. There is nothing on the condition line, there is only an adjustment on the AGE line.

Given the economic life span of improvements that are not significantly remodeled or updated, but only maintained, last about 65 years (and given typical land/value ratios) as an approximation, each one year given to effective age is typically (not always) a 1.5% adjustment to the total value. So a home that has aged well for 4 years has likely accrued an additional EA of 2 years, with carries a 3% adjustment on total value (land + house = sales price)

So, you have a 5 month old home, it is in NEW CONDITION (not average condition, not good condition). The home has been well maintain in those 5 months and there is no significant functional obsolescence or physical depreciation. It is in C-1 condition, the EFFECTIVE AGE is 0 years

Now, after 4 years since construction was completed, lets say the home is well maintained with no significant deferred maintenance. It likely has an EA of 2 years, but is now a C-4. Effective age is progressing in a mathematical progression as in wear and tear, as in depreciation and obsolescence (as it is occurring in the real world); whereas, the C rating has no reliable correlation to these mathematically or proportionally.

To further prove this point:

Now lets say you have a well maintained home that lacks significant updating or remodel and it was built 20 years ago, it would likely have an EA of 10 years and it would likely have a C-4 rating.

So, therefore, Mathematically, according to a UAD model, a 4 year old house that has been well maintained is in the same condition C-4 as a 20 year old house that has been well maintained (no remodel or updating).

Now, to the 20 year old house, lets add some significant level of updating and/or remodel (but not a complete updating or remodel or renovation), and the condition rating goes to C-3. The EA will depend upon the level of updating and remodel such that it should compare to an equal EA of another house of any other age that would have the same market reaction to its age and condition (in other words, the same EAs of such homes have no relative adjustment). So lets take a 6 year old house and update it. Well, there is typically very little to update in a 6 year old house to make it look like and compare directly with a new or 1 year old house. Lets say that level of updating was done. In such a case, the EA would likely be 1 year and it would have a C rating of C-3. Well, you wouldn't update or rehabilitate virtually all building components of a 6 year old house to make it a C-2 or C-1, so that isn't going to happen. This home would compare with a 0 to 1 year old house in the market with no relative EA adjustment but would have a C-3 rating.

So the question is, obviously the C ratings have no correlation in a linear or even positive or negative direction in regard to what is actually present in the market, so what are you doing on the age line to counter this lack of logical progressive correlation?

Marshall & Swift Rating are relevant to the Market, not Q ratings. If I tell a custom builder that I want very good to excellent quality fixtures, and good quality cabinetry throughout, with very good to excellent quality solid stained panel doors in mission style but in the basement some average quality painted hollow panel doors will suffice, they know what I'm talking about. It the language of the market.

Do you think the custom home builder will put together items for me with Q ratings?

M&S interviews builders and finds out what is going into their homes that they are selling, the cost of those items that were put into the home and sold. They aren't the cost of items on a shelf in home depot, they are the items that sold in the market in a home and the cost that the market appeared to pay for those items within that context - it is based upon market research. Q ratings may be based upon, in some loose way, to M&S or other cost manuals, but they are fictional characters. You need to understand quality and the relationship of cost to quality.

The most important point that you miss regarding Q ratings is that it doesn't apply to individual components, it only applies to the overall rating of the dwelling. You would not say that those granite slab counters have a Q rating of C2 or C1 you would say those granite slab counters are of very good or excellent quality (or whatever they happen to be in cost Manual Terms).

This is an example of what you may find under the grid with my appraisals, it basically covers the areas in the grid above the square footage line since UAD was implemented. It allows me to do the math, since that space is now been taken over by UAD underwriting code.

These are typically the percentage adjustments that are given; whereas, in the grid below the square footage line, I can place the net contributory value estimate inside the grid where the item is listed; such as, Deck, Patio(8k), which makes for an easy comparison (and rechecking) from subject to comps by simply looking at and comparing the estimated net contributory numbers across the grid to calculate the adjustments. So comparing Subject, Deck, Patio(10k) with Comp 1, Deck Patio(8k), one would then have a +2,000 on the deck patio line for comp 1. If I used these comps in another report, I already have the contributory values estimated for use in another appraisal rather than just a relative adjustment. It means I stand by these estimates of EA, location, decks and patios, etc, not only for one particular appraisal but in others. I don't make arbitrary adjustments to create some predetermined result. Taking a comp out of one and putting it into another with the same valuation attributes is a nice way to prove what you are doing makes sense, since if it didn't, then it simply wouldn't adjust to a level that makes sense with what you are doing with the other new sales.

SUBJECT [ Location = Corner,Gradual Slope || View = Avg(+) || Quality = Avg(+) || Effective Age = 10 Eff

Comp 4 [ Location = Street Interior, Gradual Slope/Sup 3% || View = Gd(+)/Sup 2%|| Quality = Gd(+)/Sup 10%|| Effective age = 3 Eff/Sup 10%|| Time Adj/36 wks(+4.2%)]

Comp 5 [ Location = Cul-de-sac Road, Gradual Slope/Sup 6% || View =Avg/Inf 1% || Quality = Avg(+)/Sup 4% || Effective age = 8 Eff/Sup 3%|| Time Adj/Listing(0%)]

Comp 6 [ Location = Street Interior, Gradual Slope, near Commercial Development/Inf 3% || View =Avg/Inf 1%|| Quality = Avg(+)/Sup 3% || Effective age = 3 Eff/Sup 10% ||Time Adj/Listing(0%)]
 
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