• Welcome to AppraisersForum.com, the premier online  community for the discussion of real estate appraisal. Register a free account to be able to post and unlock additional forums and features.

Value only the first 10 acres?

Status
Not open for further replies.

unloadit

Sophomore Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
Oregon
Ok,

I have a client that wants me to only value the subject as if it's on 10 acres, but it is really on 40 acres. I have told them that if I value it on 10 acres, it has to be "subject to" a hypothetical condition. I told them if I value all 40 acres, it will be "as is." They want me to call it "as is" and only give value to 10 acres, and and give contributory value to the rest of the acreage.

Any thoughts??

Thanks,
Brian
 
Last edited:
Most of the time when this happens the value not there to start with that they need for the loan.

Had a stupid loan officer ask me to put $750K of value on the 5 acres and the old farm house. They need to refi the farm but his program would only allow him to loan of 5 acres.

These guys are just plain stupid.

You can do it, but I would make it a narative report and cya in many different places. Starting with a copy of the suvey of the 10 acres he wants you to use. I would also note this is part of a 40 ac. parcel in several places in the report.


:new_multi: :new_all_coholic: :new_all_coholic: :new_multi:​
 
Ok,

They want me to call it "as is" and only give value to 10 acres, and and give contributory value to the rest of the acreage.

Any thoughts??

Thanks,
Brian

LOL... That's how it's done anyway. Value the land in use at HBU and adjust for any excess or surplus (assuming HBU at 10 acres.) They just want you to say it differently so that it is misleading to their funding source.

Is there zoning at this property? If so, what is the minimum lot size?
 
Last edited:
So you hypothetical away 30 acres? Where did they go? What are they worth? That's the problem with crazy ideas like this! H&B Uses is a very important question in this example. Are you looking for market value, then you should have highest and best use. What is your scope of work? Maybe with a properly worded scope of work you can get away with doing this?

Do your research before accepting the assignment.
 
Fannie won't accept the hypothetical. Point that out. Find out what is legally permissible. Is the hypothetical plausible?

If the purpose is to determine the contribution to value of excess land, I believe it could have a legitimate underwriting function. Also, there are so many types of investor pools formed, how the heck is an appraiser going to know what the standard is for a loan to qualify in one of the various pools? Fannie is a no no per Fannie on the hypothetical 5, 10 whatever. They don't rule the World.

Read the links posted by Mike. I think such a hypothetical analysis can be useful from time to time. It probably should be paired with value of the whole as well, since that is what will generally be encumbered. I hate being contrary with the likes of Santora! I guess I'm feeling reckless:)
 
In my opinion, it should be the appraiser deciding how much acreage contributes to value, NOT the client. The appraiser is the expert.
 
In my opinion, it should be the appraiser deciding how much acreage contributes to value, NOT the client. The appraiser is the expert.


In some cases, I believe the investor is asking the quoted question of the appraiser, in order to get the property to legitimately qualify for a niche investor pool.

However, in quite a few cases they are probably trying to wedge the property into a conforming pool (FNMA) through trickery. If the hypothetical is fully disclosed, side by side with the actual property information and analysis, I don't see how anyone can be tricked short of a lender discarding pages.:shrug:

It is a bit odd, since Fannie will take properties over 10 acres all day long. Well, of course, there is the adjustment factor, if similar comps with acreage are not available......
 
Ok,

I have a client that wants me to only value the subject as if it's on 10 acres, but it is really on 40 acres. I have told them that if I value it on 10 acres, it has to be "subject to" a hypothetical condition. I told them if I value all 40 acres, it will be "as is." They want me to call it "as is" and only give value to 10 acres, and and give contributory value to the rest of the acreage.

Any thoughts??

Thanks,
Brian

Mr. Sherrill,

A) Do not take or complete this assignment unless you call the Oregon ACLB and get their advice first. You're "Licensed", transaction value over $250,000 and have the board consider the assignment "Complex" and you are out of scope of your practice. I say any such assignment is "complex" due to all the hazards with one. They would never be for the inexperienced. Just the fact you are asking on here tells me you don't know enough to be trying one. If any aspect of your work regarding the use of the HC was later found to lack credibility, you've violated USPAP. ..

B) Find and read Barry Shea's "The "Five Acre" Appraisal" article. .. If one clearly grasps the complexities in taking on such an assignment, any appraiser who is thinking will require a nonrefundable fee, or fee per hour, just to study the subject to see if it is even possible to do the assignment using the HC. .. It is not possible to do this with any and all subject properties. For example, sometimes due to the shape of the hypothetical acres used against street access, water source, septic, location of outbuildings, location of main house, etc., the HC looses credibility because a vital element cannot be included. ... Ya can't just toss in a hypothetical septic system because you just sliced it off. .. So you cannot proceed without a few hours of your time studing all of the above... Do you want to do that and end up not getting paid for your time? .. .. If this is for a FRT, two appraisals would be required, one under a HC and one not. ..These things require a well written engagement contract, or don't take them!

C) Now you know Fannie considers such an assignment to be an "Unacceptable Appraisal Practice. ... To me such language rises to the level of a Supplemental Standard. ... Given this day and ages fraud occurring in altering of appraisal PDF files, who in their right mind would deliever such an assignment reporting it on a 03/2005 Fannie form? .. Even if you use a "Subject To" check box, those boxes just have to be one of the easiest to alter items there is. Word of advice, never use any of the Fannie forms for such an assignment. If the client can really use such an appraisal, they can live with it on a non-standard appraisal form.

D) Appraisers and clients both chronically fail to understand the differences between check boxes on appraisal forms and discussing "as-is" appraisals when loans are involved. All brains jump to the check boxes instead of to appraisal practice. An appraisal "Based" on a hypothetical condition, or a extraordinary assumption, does not have to use a "Subject To" check box on a form. There are instances where an appraiser does not have to force something into reality in order to say what a value would be hypothetically. Conversely, using a "Subject To" check box does not always mean the appraisal process was acceptable to the powers that whack the side of our heads and licenses. ... Point of fact, once a HC "the site is only ten acres" has been invoked, just exactly what has the "contributory value" of the remaining thirty acres have to do with peanuts in Spain?.. Those thirty acres no longer exist, hypothetically we just wished them away. .. But this client wants a hypothetical contributory value for them too? .. As what, a vacant lot? ... Would that be buildable or not buildable?

Do you see the logic breaking down already with the client and the intended use if this is for a mortgage loan? The client is already asking you to wish something away, but to give it value too for the loan.

Barry Dayton
 
However, in quite a few cases they are probably trying to wedge the property into a conforming pool (FNMA) through trickery. If the hypothetical is fully disclosed, side by side with the actual property information and analysis, I don't see how anyone can be tricked short of a lender discarding pages.
Other than tricking a "lender" or the secondary market, there is no reason to ask for the hypothetical. It seems to be a perpertual discrepancy on the forum to refer to the employees of a lender as the lender. They are not the same. I can understand that the lender's employee wants to "produce" a loan. That is how their performance is measured. The "lender" has no need for any subterfuge. If the appraiser doesn't appraise it wrongly, then those who make loans and those who buy loans can never be tricked -
and public trust in appraisers is thereby maintained. :)

You can do it, but I would make it a narative report and cya in many different places
If the HC is inappropriate, then what difference does it make what type of form is used? Also, if doing something is a development error, how does one "cya" that away?

Someone ought to mention that if the client is a federally insured institution (the people who sell to Fannie), the federal guidelines call for the property to be appraised in its actual physical condition. That is, the use of the hypothetical fails to meet the federal guidelines for loan originattion, even before it has a chance possibly to get to Fannie and fail to meet those guidelines as well. In fact, you won't find anyone looking to make loans against hypothetical property.

I think these type of issues are one of the reasons the appraisal "profession" is unique in the degree to which it is externally regulated. Every government agency and large repeat client has to make their own standards, because appraisers as a group can't seem to figure out the risks of contingent and hypothetical appraisals. In 20 years, the Appraisal Foundation has not produced any material that makes the idea of "as is " value part of the body of knowledge, a benchmark in USPAP, any part of the tested qualifying course work, or part of USPAP CE.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Find a Real Estate Appraiser - Enter Zip Code

Copyright © 2000-, AppraisersForum.com, All Rights Reserved
AppraisersForum.com is proudly hosted by the folks at
AppraiserSites.com
Back
Top