Well, Septic, Checmical Dumps, Wet Lands Permits.

[Ray Miller]

Question: How many appraiser check the well and septic systems permits to be sure they are legal and current? :asleep: How many appraisers check with the DNR and get certification from them about wet lands on subject property. :asleep: How many appraiser walk the acreage and check for old chemical dumps of farm abandoned supplies (oil, lube, chemicals) ? How many appraisers walk the acreage and check for old fuel tanks underground? :asleep:

I have done three field reviews this week that the well, septic or fuel tank permits were not legal. There were old dumps for farm chemicals and tractor/truck lube supplies and underground fuel tanks behind the barns. The appraiser had disregarded this information. :twisted: I call and talk with both appraisers and they told me that they were under the gun to get the reports in under 24 hours of the time of inspection. :rainfro: They did not have time to wait to get the information back from the DNR or the county, as this kind of information is not important to the total value of the subjects. Nor did they have time to wait for the wetlands report from the DNR.

Had one of them tell me she had no idea of these kinds of things because she mostly did city appraisals, but since things were slow, her boss was sending her out to the rural areas to do appraisals now. Her boss told her there were no differences in city appraisals and the rural farmett appraisal. :mrgreen:

Am I getting to far in depth of the job of the appraiser? But no well and if not able to get a well permit. That means hauling in potable water, which is a big cost and a big problem in this area.

I know in the western states I have lived in that it can be common in some areas. :question:

Just looking for answers??

 

[Pamela Crowley (Florida)]

Ray,

The fact that other appraisers are cutting corners for quick turn times and going into areas where they are NOT competent doesn't mean that you are doing too much.

YOU are RIGHT!!!

They are WRONG!!!

 

[Michigander]

mmmmm.....I do some country properties, I do not check to see that they have valid permits for well and septic. If they have a certificate of occupancy, then they had a valid permit at some point. I am far from a corner-cutter (you've seen my work Pam, you know what goes into them). I think you have to draw the line somewhere in your report on how much digging you do or otherwise you are 20-hours into a simple appraisal and that is plain stupid. DNR wetlands information on small country properties is a bit much, as is checking for recent permits on wells and septic systems. What do your peers do? Mine certainly don't pull looking for permits nor DNR wetlands on typical country properties. If you are doing large tracts of land, it is a different story, but appraising the typical country property of 10 acres or less it seems to me to be overkill.

We are not the permit police.

 

[Ray Miller]

But arn't permits a part of the value of the property.

This sping Bobbie (Senior Boss) and I looked at a farm to buy. I question the well and the septic system as being conforming. As it turn out they were not. Now no lender in the world that I know of will lend on land with a home that dose not have a well and septic system is that is legal.

The old boy (lived there 70 yrs) selling the farm (60 acres), house remoleded in excellent condition, would not pay for a new well or septic. It set on the market all summer, no one buying. It was in a hot area and the price was right. But it was going to cost $25,000 to put in the well and septic. This winter is sold for $45,000 less then what they ask all summer. By the time the new owners finished with the well and septic and the DNR creek out in front of the house it cost them $50,000 to reach compliance.

So say I did the appraisal on this property and did not check the well, septic, DNR Creek for compliance. The property sold at full asking price. The people moved in and found out that the well, septic and creek did not meet complience. They were going to need to spend big bucks in order to live in the house on the 60 acres who's back side would be on the line? The realtor? The Appraiser? The seller? Or no one?

Arn't these thing primary to value on rural property?

 

[Richard Carlsen]

Checking for valid permits is not, IMNSHO, part of the appraisal process. It is perfectly permissible to make the assumption in the report that the well and septics are up to code if you are in a county that requires such permits. If we did not draw the line somewhere, we would be doing a 4 code check on every house just to make sure that everything is up to code before we begin the valuation process.

If there is a question as to the house being up to code, call for an inspection. If there is not a question and you really want to know if it is then require the homeowner to provide proof that the present systems meet code.

It seems like everyone is trying to get the appraiser to check everything out and certify this and that when our function is to form an opinion of value. If other appraisers want to spend their time chasing down county officials and running to the various county offices to look up well and septic permits, let them do it. I for one do not think it is part of the appraisal process and while you are out there doing this needless task, I will be completing the assignment that you did not get because you were too busy checking permits.

It is not a question of cutting corners or being sloppy. It is a question of doing exactly what we are hired to do and doing that well.

Question: Assuming that the report requested is a 1004, where on the 1004 form does it ask the question, "Are the well and septic systems installed per local codes?" The answer is, nowhere.

I would suggest that #6 in the Statement of Limiting Conditions be read once again. Why someone would want to answer a question that is not necessary and is not asked is beyond me. You just waste your valuable time and increase your already large liability.

 

[Nancy Wyatt]

I do not appraise "rural properties" however we do plenty of small acreage properties, some up to 35 acres. I usually put in the addenda that the well and septic systems are assumed to be in conformity with the health and county regulations, and that well and septic are common for small acreage properties and have little, if any effect on the marketability and appeal.

I also, do not check.

What do the rest of the experts here say?

 

[Michigander]

Not so long ago someone posted this language

A physical observation of the property was performed. Although due diligence was exercised while visiting the subject property, the appraiser is not an expert in such matters as identification of mold, lead paint, pest control, structural engineering, hazardous waste, soil slippage, septic/cesspool system integrity, electrical-plumbing-roof-foundation systems, etc and the appraiser assumes no responsibility for those items. If the client has any questions regarding these items, it is the client's responsibility to order the appropriate inspections with the final opinion of market of value being subject to a licensed professionals findings."

which I think is a good cover all. Of course well and septic system functioning is pertinant, but we have to draw the line somewhere, and we are not experts in the condition of these things. Don't take on more responsibility than you need to. Refer this on to the appropriate parties. Who is to say having a valid well and septic permit guarantees that the W&S are in good working order? We are not home inspectors, and we are not well and septic testers either.

 

[Mountain Man]

Ditto with Richard, it's not a part of my job. I make assumptions, note if anything is obviously wrong, and do the appraisal.

 

[Liz South]

When I'm doing one on well/septic I specifically state in the addendum that I assume that there is on file with the appropriate county health department satisfactory well/septic permits; otherwise the final opinion of market value may be affected.

I don't feel that it is my responsibility to check well/septic permits.

Liz S.

 

[Pamela Crowley (Florida)]

OK, I'll back up here and go to 'It Depends'. For Ray, his knowledge of his area sound like these are very relevant factors. I do use the assumption that the well and/or septic system(s) are functional and legal - UNLESS I see or hear something that would make me think otherwise. Basically, almost everything I do here that is on a well and/or septic is new enough that there's no way they are living there without it being legally installed. I have called for well or septic inspections if something appears to be not right or I explain what I see and highly recommend inspections. If the place is pretty old, I explain and highly recommend inspections.

I also focused on Ray's comments regarding walking the acreage and looking for wetlands or anything else that might cause a problem or be a value issue. When in a rural area where agricultural activities are or have been prevalent, contamination should always be a concern and discussed.