Adapt or Die?

[Stone]

I detected a pattern. This little compilation below from your recent posts on this thread isn't my imagination. I am totally unopposed to changing the wording I used "emotional reaction" to, say, rhetorical mantra. Is that OK?
I offer up rhetorical mantra quite a bit actually:icon_mrgreen: It depends on the topic.

Post 146: Now you are back to just wanting to do the garbage work without the limitations and responsibilities that come with being an appraiser.

Post 146 (continued) Is it more work for an appraiser to do the garbage work than it is for a realtor?

Post 150: There is no such thing as a report or SOW language that couldn't be picked apart here. Not for the garbage you are discussing

Post 152: What makes it more difficult for this type of nonsense product than for a different appraisal product?

Post 160: Personally, I'd rather let the realtors do this type of garbage

Oh, brother.

The garbage work I've been referring to is doing appraisal work without the responsibility of doing it as an appraiser. (that was the entire premise of the thread, remember?). You, of course have taken quotes as they meet your need, but that is fine. I am not going to go back through this whole thread and re-post the numerous times I stated that it can already be done. You must have read those while going back again, so I don't see the point in repeating them.

I do think that anyone who is not in a big shop who provides an appraisal for the price of what many BPOs go for is making things more difficult for themselves. Unless someone is working in a big, production based shop, I don't see how an appraiser can make a real living doing $50 appraisals, and I would bet that those who do those are less likely to get full fee appraisals at other points.

I do sometimes wonder what your angle is, Roger. For someone who has been out of the business for quite some time, it seems you are awfully interested in getting appraisers to work for very little. I'm just sayin'.

 

[Stone]

Stone:
I don't really want to argue with you because I understand some of your points, but these types of labels point to a logic of----extend someone's views to a ridiculous extent and then point out the flaws in it. Appraisers can provide "less reliable" products while at the same time provide "more reliable" products without a whole lot of real confusion on the part of our clients. They are not as stupid as we think they are-on the contrary they are capable of asking for what they want or need--and let them take the responsibilty for asking for what "they" want-time for us to shirk that liability and not be so insistant that we know what you should be asking for.

I don't disagree with this. I've stated numerous times that appraisers already can do this type of work. Where we disagree is over USPAP compliance. I see no reason why appraisers should somehow get to step away from USPAP for this type of work. It can already be done.

However, as I wrote again in my last post, I don't see how any self-employed or small shop operator can make a living on $50 assignments, which is around what many BPOs go for. I can imagine it working fine in a large shop environment with a bunch of people needing something to keep them busy, but I just don't see how someone working alone could turn these into a profitable situation. Maybe I am wrong about that in a larger metropolitan area, but where I live, no way.

 

[SANDY]

Stone:

Some of the things we have been discussing here are also going on in the Zaio thread. The encroachment into appraisers' territory is here and now. If we are not allowed to compete on a level playing field we will lose the entire market and we will become dinosaurs. There is no need for the USPAP poundage in many many mortgage decisions. As I see it now-we have already lost the market for cookie cutters and semi-cookie cutters. The remaining market for tougher valuations is now dominated by the AMCs that strip away most of the profit which has resulted in most appraisers cutting too many corners to produce them profitably. So in a big way the USPAP poundage has resulted in a poor product. Of course there are still "a few" old timers around that can afford to nit-pick the others because they can afford to do things the so-called right/poundage way. That's where we are as I se it.

 

[Stone]

Stone:

Some of the things we have been discussing here are also going on in the Zaio thread. The encroachment into appraisers' territory is here and now. If we are not allowed to compete on a level playing field we will lose the entire market and we will become dinosaurs. There is no need for the USPAP poundage in many many mortgage decisions. As I see it now-we have already lost the market for cookie cutters and semi-cookie cutters. The remaining market for tougher valuations is now dominated by the AMCs that strip away most of the profit which has resulted in most appraisers cutting too many corners to produce them profitably. So in a big way the USPAP poundage has resulted in a poor product. Of course there are still "a few" old timers around that can afford to nit-pick the others because they can afford to do things the so-called right/poundage way. That's where we are as I se it.

I'm hardly an "old-timer". Heck, in this field I'm still quite young at 39. I just got into it younger than many.

You are correct, though, that we are going to disagree. I just cannot accept the concept of giving an opinion of value that somehow isn't an appraisal under our standards. I do not see it as "USPAP poundage" like you do. Frankly, a report can be quite small and there isn't need for a ton of poundage for an assignment that would be similar to a BPO in terms of scope. I really don't think the hurdle is all that high for those who want to do this and continue to call themselves appraisers.

I'll bet you could spend some time over a few days and come up with a very reasonable shell document that would be adaptable to most of these types of assignments.

IMO - the big difference in terms of working under our standards is the responsibility that comes with it versus producing a product outside of USPAP. That is why I don't like the idea of there being reports done outside of USPAP.

No worries here though about disagreeing. I'm sure there are plenty who disagree with both of us.

 

[JSmith43]

I do sometimes wonder what your angle is, Roger. For someone who has been out of the business for quite some time, it seems you are awfully interested in getting appraisers to work for very little. I'm just sayin'.

I've got no profit motivation. Just yesterday I had a "Rapid Value" option come up on my screen for an application. I didn't hesitate to convert the request to a full appraisal. However, I must add, it was a calculated business decision

This is all about sharing my honest views. I post when the spirit moves me.
I wish the best for all forum appraisers, whether they agree with my comments or not. I have learned much from my occasional ideological opponents.

 

[Mike Phillips]

Stone:

Some of the things we have been discussing here are also going on in the Zaio thread. The encroachment into appraisers' territory is here and now. If we are not allowed to compete on a level playing field we will lose the entire market and we will become dinosaurs. There is no need for the USPAP poundage in many many mortgage decisions. As I see it now-we have already lost the market for cookie cutters and semi-cookie cutters. The remaining market for tougher valuations is now dominated by the AMCs that strip away most of the profit which has resulted in most appraisers cutting too many corners to produce them profitably. So in a big way the USPAP poundage has resulted in a poor product. Of course there are still "a few" old timers around that can afford to nit-pick the others because they can afford to do things the so-called right/poundage way. That's where we are as I se it.

I just posted the solution to the problem in Florida and many other states. Read "Incoming Trainee Data - Florida." Six months to go until license renewal in Florida. I have news for you - unless the Florida regulators back down and lower the standards somehow, a whole bunch of appraisers are going to get weeded out in the next few years. The AA/21-hour requirement (right or wrong) is a HUGE barrier to entry for many of today's residential appraiers. Simple as it is, many can't pay the price, many more won't pay the price. I started in the business in '82. I can wait. Furthermore, I'm going to wait. Worst case scenario - I simply move out of mortgage work.

You want to lower you product standards? Go for it.

Cheers -
MP

 

[JSmith43]

New information today that I stumbled upon: BPO's for HELOCS, $150, with interior inspection. On going and in a state where it is only legal for a RE licensee to do CMA's/BPO/s if they are in pursuit of a listing.

Appraisers are ceding ground and customers are getting used to the BPO's and liking the results. Apparently they are better than nothing, better than an AVM alone. Quite frankly, there is nothing about an appraiser license or saluting or following current USPAP to a T that impresses these institutional users of valuation products.

Appraisers can pressure state commerce departments to punish licensed brokers and real estate agents for not following commerce department rules and regulations. However, as the rules apply in MN, all one would have to do is not be licensed as a RE broker or appraiser, just be known as having a knack for cranking out fairly reliable and timely price opinions

The level playing field is what I am after, and, frankly, it isn't a matter of RE agents winning vs appraisers winning. It is a matter of competing people, skilled in real estate valuation, being able to offer their services to customers.

I repeat, this begs for a declaratory standard. Declare the hat, declare the standard, deliver what you promise. If lenders have to use appraisers, then they will use appraisers. If they don't have to, they may or may not use them.

The less appraisers are hobbled in competing with these niche encroachments, the less the branding of appraisers as the profession to go to for valuation problems, will be eroded.

 

[Stone]

Roger - this isn't exactly news, is it?

What a concept. Realtors are performing appraisals in states where they shouldn't be (except for listing purposes). Your answer is to lower the bar for appraisers.

No thanks.

One last time, the overwhelming burden put on appraisers by USPAP is just not that overwhelming. The products you want appraisers to provide can be done. And, the level playing field could be easily attained if there was actual enforcement of rules and laws.

You and I have, apparently, very different views of what is best for this profession at this time. I certainly don't see allowing appraisers to opt-out of regulations when they wish as being the answer.

We are apparently not going to agree and that is fine. I'm just glad that I don't see your answer happening in the near future. And, I do not see that as the downfall of appraising. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[JSmith43]

Stone, I know your professed view. I was writing for the audience. If anyone out there is watching and finds it interesting, the comments of an insider outing the system, please let Stone know


That little peace symbol is not my Barak Obama, Can we all get along? gesture. I am at peace being in disagreement with you over the parts of the analysis of the situation, and offer a new, reasoned path. Change! Change that others are not solely directing. Change that appraisers and believers in the goal of a more even playing field with a minimum of central planning.

 

[Roy Courtney]

If we could just make one minor change to the whole process I think it would help. That change would be to require the following statment be signed and notarized by all persons buying stock in publicly held banks, mortgage companies, etc.

Our company lends YOUR money to whoever we wish whenever we wish. The collaterial for the loan is based on BPOs, AVMs, etc, or anything possible except the professional opinion of an appraiser! Do not worry, the management team has in place the golden parachute provisions in our contract. The investors CANNOT lose more than they invest. Please sign below and forward your check to......