Customary and reasonable fees - 90 days

[Metamorphic]

How about staying with your company that took you under their wings and trained you? Newbs can't do that. Once they get licensed, bam their off on their on.

That says it all.


This is why fees are at $175. Wow. And the AMCs think the above is customary and reasonable?

The problem is is that under the AMC model at least, there's no advantage to having a partner, and not having a boss is one of the things that makes appraising desirable. If you're willing to risk the ire of the MLS board you can maybe save a little by sharing a login. But you need your own EnO, the AMC makes you sign up under your own name and credentials. Joining somebody else's business is just more complications for no more money and no more work. Maybe it would be different if the person you trained with had a big legal practice or something like that, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

The appraiser training system is so profoundly dysfunctional that I think its beyond saving short of a top to bottom overhaul. The class work is completely detached from the reality of the job and its given at time when the trainee doesn't know enough about the business to pluck the few nuggets of info that are potentially valuable, and all the real training is turned over to somebody who may or may not be a good teacher, may or may not be a good appraiser, who is totally unregulated or supervised, who has no specific standards of performance, who may or may not have a practice that will offer sufficient opportunity to produce a well rounded student.

What they really need to do is create a separate license endorsement for appraiser's who are qualified to train with appropriate course work and testing. The carrot that would make this worth while would be that at some point in the progression of the trainee, the trainee could become authorized to inspect solo, and towards the end could do non-complex jobs solo.

 

[Mejappz]

The problem is is that under the AMC model at least, there's no advantage to having a partner, and not having a boss is one of the things that makes appraising desirable. If you're willing to risk the ire of the MLS board you can maybe save a little by sharing a login. But you need your own EnO, the AMC makes you sign up under your own name and credentials. Joining somebody else's business is just more complications for no more money and no more work. Maybe it would be different if the person you trained with had a big legal practice or something like that, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

The appraiser training system is so profoundly dysfunctional that I think its beyond saving short of a top to bottom overhaul. The class work is completely detached from the reality of the job and its given at time when the trainee doesn't know enough about the business to pluck the few nuggets of info that are potentially valuable, and all the real training is turned over to somebody who may or may not be a good teacher, may or may not be a good appraiser, who is totally unregulated or supervised, who has no specific standards of performance, who may or may not have a practice that will offer sufficient opportunity to produce a well rounded student.

What they really need to do is create a separate license endorsement for appraiser's who are qualified to train with appropriate course work and testing. The carrot that would make this worth while would be that at some point in the progression of the trainee, the trainee could become authorized to inspect solo, and towards the end could do non-complex jobs solo.

Great post Meta, I completely agree with you. The problem is that many believe that the certified is supposed to hold the trainees hand all through their training and never allow them to inspect a property on their own. The trainee/supervisor roles in the appraisal profesion(and I use that term loosely) is one of the biggest jokes ever. Btw... congratulations on becoming licensed.

 

[PropertyEconomics]

Lets see ... $87 BILLION dollars (isnt that about the loss so far of Fannie) could have been a lot of loans turned down and lenders would have MADE money in doing so.

The true issue with the lending community is that the "workers" are set up on commission based salaries ... they dont make if they dont close ... that is an idiotic approach to lending.

I can tell you I reviewed a commercial appraisal and after my review I felt the value was approximately $300,000 low .... the appraiser refused to do additional research or analysis ... thus they were fired. The new appraiser was slightly above that which I thought was market value for the property, however, the long and short of it is the property is now under contract at $240,000 above the original appraised amount ... I would suggest that $240,000 pays for a lot of appraisals, salaries, etc ...

We need GOOD appraisal work and if those in the business cannot provide that they should be ushered to the door. Good business creates good business ... and bad business creates LOSSES!!

 

[GCJim]

I can say with 99% certainty, lenders get appraisals because they have to not because they want to and that is the problem.

Lenders achieve income and profits when they make loans, and due to lending rules and regs appraisals prevent them from being able to make loans to people who don't have collateral.

They don't want to pay more for quality because quality doesn't get them more loans!

Truer words have not been spoken, particularly for residential lending. The predominant mindset has been 'You, appraiser, are a potential obstacle between a beautiful commission and myself. Make sure you don't come between us, and that I get the value, or you will never get another order again.'

 

[Metamorphic]

Truer words have not been spoken, particularly for residential lending. The predominant mindset has been 'You, appraiser, are a potential obstacle between a beautiful commission and myself. Make sure you don't come between us, and that I get the value, or you will never get another order again.'

Exactly!


As I've said before....Make the income of the decision makers in the mortgage business dependent on the LONG TERM performance of the loan and all the problems go away. You can get rid of Govt oversight, licensing, HVCC, Fannie and Freddie rules...dump it all. If you dont get paid and in fact get stiffed for a bad loan, you will be a big fan of good client qualifications and good collaterialization.

 

[Michigan CG]

..........The problem is that many believe that the certified is supposed to hold the trainees hand all through their training and never allow them to inspect a property on their own.......

If I have to sign a report I will visit the property. It is license suicide to not be very involved with everything that has my signature on it.

 

[Metamorphic]

If I have to sign a report I will visit the property. It is license suicide to not be very involved with everything that has my signature on it.

Dont get me wrong....I TOTALLY get what you're saying. But to play devil's advocate.

If YOU, who have spend many hundreds of hours with this person, have not successfully trained them how to properly inspect, or have properly trained them but cant trust their completeness, or judgement of something that is beyond their ability, then why should the public have any faith in the product of your training.

Basically, when you're getting ready to sign of a trainee's logs, you dam well better trust them to do an adequate inspection.

 

[AnonApprsr]

The amount of time I would have to spend with a human being to trust them with my future would not be conducive to me making a living. Unless they paid me.

 

[Metamorphic]

The amount of time I would have to spend with a human being to trust them with my future would not be conducive to me making a living. Unless they paid me.

Then why should the state trust your trainee?

I really dont think there's any rational argument in favor of an appraiser going from being able to do nothing unsupervised to doing everything unsupervised, but that's the system we've got and this is where it has gotten us.

This is exactly why appraiser's have such a tough time. If no matter how far up the food chain you are, your capacity to do work is limited by your ability to do everything personally we'll always be a small time industry. You wonder why people go to the dark side and hire runners or worse, go to work for an AMC? Simple, its the only way they can develop an income that is not dependent on the number of hours a day they have to throw at the work.

My first day as a Geologist I saw my first well. That day they taught me to develop it for sampling. After a week of that they taught me to collect the water samples. At that point I'd never even met the guy that would eventually sign the report. Next month I learned to collect samples using hand tools, month after that I learned how to soil sample with a drill rig. etc etc. 2 years later I was training people to do all that. 5 years later I was writing the procedures. 10 years later I was the guy signing the report. The concept of appropriately trained and qualified people doing significant work with appropriate supervision is well accepted in most every field. Engineers do it, attorneys do it, Doctors do it. Do you really think your work is more important than those guys work?

 

[Mejappz]

If I have to sign a report I will visit the property. It is license suicide to not be very involved with everything that has my signature on it.

I understand what your saying and I like you would probably not sleep well if I where to send out a trainee on an inspection. Not so much because I did not trust that person to do a competent job but because of the onerous regulations that we are put under.

One, thing I do know is the entire trainee/supervisor model is in complete shambles. Here, in Florida we have to take a 3 hour course on trainee/ supervisor roles. When, I left that class it was basically hire a trainee go to jail (ok I am exaggerating) but no one in their right mind would even think of hiring a trainee after leaving that class.

One of the things that has always bugged me about the appraisal profession is the “lone wolf” mentality that affects many in this industry. Earlier, this year I attended a local AI chapter meeting one of the topics discussed was the whole trainee/supervisor issue. One of the suggestions made was to separate the inspection from the valuation process. In other words having a home inspector, trainee or the actual certified do the inspection. I am not sure how that would work but at least they where brainstorming and trying to come up with different ideas to a serious problem plaguing this profession.