Customary and reasonable fees - 90 days

[Meandering]

And here you go again pretending as if nothing else has been posted and the only thing HR 4173 says is a bunch of AMC appraisers will get a pay raise.

I have no clue where you derive this from. So, I'll assume your panties are in a bunch and you want to blame me for it.

The next time you talk to a "real life" appraiser ask him/her if they know the law also directs the ASB to promulgate AVM regulations.".

I have posted the HR 4173 and links to it more than 30 times since March. Links to it are on my website. I am not hiding it. If people don't read it, that is not my fault as I have always encouraged everyone to read it for themselves and not ask me to spell it out to them. So for that, your question directed at me is off base dear. Please direct it to people who have not read it and inquire of them, why not?

Add to that the Appraisal Foundation recently formed a new Appraisal Practices board which has board members who advocate for new methods of valuation

Oh! Like adjusting Active Listings? Is that the fault of the APB? Or is it an oversight that the AF has allowed to go on? Isn't it misleading, because there is no Active Listings Approach and USPAP says we must use those approaches recognized by the Industry?

and we just may have licensed AVMs in the near future.

The law did not create AVMs so you're saying it is better if they are not licensed? I'm not following your reasoning or your line of thinking. Is it better we pretend they don't exist and they will go away? Maybe you thought that was how I felt about you, but it isn't. I will give you the best answers I have to the legitimate questions you ask, but so far... there is not much question for me to answer.

Try getting R&C when an AVM is your licensed competition.

Instead of whining, try writing news articles to inform the public about who AVMs commoditize Their property. Show borrowers why appraisers are better than computers. Stand up for your industry and DO SOMETHING, other than whine here. We cannot help those that will not help themselves.

Or ask them what they think the GAO report may look like, you know the one the new law directs the GAO to complete.

I do not know who the "them" are that you want me to ask. But GAO is on my radar. So you should know that the GAO has been tasked with many studies from the FinReg. Appraising is, I think three of them, to which, C&R is not one of. So if you want to know about the other studies, sorry, it is not time to make public announcements.

Ask them how they feel about the new powers granted to the ASC (higher registry fees, more regulation form Washington)?

Again I don't know who the them is you are refering to, but what does feelings have to do with anything at all?

Maybe talk about the new Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection and who will now set the deminimus.

Maybe your suggestion is too late and we have a nifty Congressional Letter to prove it.

My guess is you and your "real life" appraiser friends just walk around like zombies mumbling "reasonable and customay, reasonable and customary".

Honey, if you are an appraiser than you know guessing is not allowed. But if it makes you happy to develop a tiny fantasy world where you are king and everybody else is evil, have at it.

I'm honest, I work hard, and I've offered to address any concerns you have if you post them here. I have done the best I could with what you have presented me. I will repeat that I'm not here to fight or argue with you. But no real advantage can be gained by you or anyone to make accusations about things you do not know about me, my work, or the work many others are engaged in for the Industry.

As I have said, it is not perfect and we are working on it. If you don't like it, don't do lending work.

If you want to make it better, great, because we need the help. If you don't want to work with us fine. Call your legislatures yourselves. Drive to Washington like we do. Whatever it takes, but DO SOMETHING other than whine and fight and back bite, because I don't have time for that.

Have a peaceful rest of the day.

.

 

[Adios]

Fee Survey

Pat,

I wish it were so simple. Many lenders bundle fees and it has been perfectly legal. Also going forward lenders "may" report the appraisal fee not "shall". They shall pay reasonable and customary but the reporting part is optional. Most lenders with whom I have spoken will report because they don't want the invitation for lawsuits.

The intent of the law is clear. I don't care what AMCs say about the fees they are paying. They don't get to decide what is R & C. The lenders will. Both lenders and AMCs will be exposed so all parties will be seekign indemnifications.

I am hearing that there are a few AMCs who are continuing to negotiate fees downward. They clearly don't understand the law. Every AMC who is in the Collateral Risk Network does understand. We met a few weeks ago and had legislators, regulators, Lenders and AMCs in deep discussion.

Historic fees only lead to what is customary. What is reasonable will come from fee surveys. So for goodness sakes respond to every fee survey possible.

I need several thousand more responses so please spread the word, www.feesurvey.com

And if you have an AMC who doesn't get it have them particpiate in the webinar on Sept 8 that is advertised in the Buzz.

jtrice@allterragroup.com

 

[Elliott]

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[Meandering]

Ms. Joan,

We are aware of the MAY language in the HUD letters and we are also aware that while the LAW says surveys can be conducted, nowhere does the law say that surveys will determine the customary and reasonable fees.

What it says is:
‘‘(i) CUSTOMARY AND REASONABLE FEE.—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—Lenders and their agents shall compensate
fee appraisers at a rate that is customary and reasonable
for appraisal services performed in the market area of
the property being appraised. Evidence for such fees may be
established by objective third-party information, such as
government agency fee schedules, academic studies, and independent
private sector surveys. Fee studies shall exclude
assignments ordered by known appraisal management companies.

Appraisers are not third party, no matter how much some people want to call us vendors.

And the survey's only provide evidence. Not determine the customary and reasonable fee.

So if we look at the FHFA HOUSING purchase price APPRECIATION CALCULATOR

And the historic Median Lender Survey APPRAISAL Fee in 2000 = that fee was $305.00

IF we adjust the $305 fee from 2000 to 2010 dollars, per the FHFA Appreciation Calculator we get:

$584 a Reasonable current fee.

Now we prove it with HUD1s that state the borrower paid this and more for appraisals over the past year.

Now we have evidence of Customary.

And we have it from UNINTERESTED THIRD PARTIES.


Thank you for trying, it keeps the rest of us sharp.

 

[GCJim]

Pat,
............. Many lenders bundle fees and it has been perfectly legal. ...............................................................................

I will hasten to point out that they have been bundling fees under the caption, 'Appraisal Fee'.
Perfectly legal maybe, but perfectly UNETHICAL, as in intentionally hiding something (garbage fees) from the public.
Perfect scumbags.

So be it. When I see on the HUD 1 'Appraisal Fee---------$600., then that is what was paid for the Appraisal Fee.
Shall we try to UNBUNDLE the fees now?

 

[Non Sequitur]

I wish it were so simple. Many lenders bundle fees and it has been perfectly legal. Also going forward lenders "may" report the appraisal fee not "shall". They shall pay reasonable and customary but the reporting part is optional. Most lenders with whom I have spoken will report because they don't want the invitation for lawsuits.

True. That's why the whole "Look at the HUD1" argument is a non-starter, well at least for those who understand a little about the real estate business.

The intent of the law is clear.

Then R&C should have been clearly defined with no weasel words, but it isn't.

I don't care what AMCs say about the fees they are paying. They don't get to decide what is R & C. The lenders will. Both lenders and AMCs will be exposed so all parties will be seekign indemnifications.

Exactly. It's no secret what reasonable and customary is, lenders know, AMCs know, real appraisers know, so when the lenders decide (as some already have) there isn't a survey out there that will make them pay a dollar more than what they WANT to.

I am hearing that there are a few AMCs who are continuing to negotiate fees downward. They clearly don't understand the law.

They understand it better than those who continue to claim that this law stops a client from offering and an appraiser from accepting any fee. If a client offers $500 an appraiser is free to accept it just the same as if the fee is $150, high or low the appraiser will sign a statement agreeing that the fee is reasonable and customary.

But some claim everyone will be stuck with a fee survey and can't negotiate higher or lower. That's just fantasy land and a little opiate for the masses while the real meat and intent of the law is slammed down on us.

 

[Meandering]

Actually RESPA says no fee bundeling. That is why there is line 804 AND line 808 on a HUD 1.

They bundle because nobody has enforced rules on lenders. But when the lawsuits are filed they sure do anti up very quickly.

Now why do you think they just pay off those law suits and wait for them to go away.

 

[Michigan CG]

..........So be it. When I see on the HUD 1 'Appraisal Fee---------$600., then that is what was paid for the Appraisal Fee.
Shall we try to UNBUNDLE the fees now?

According to the HUD 1 the CONSUMER thinks they paid $600 for the appraisal, and they were willing to pay that amount. So we have a willing consumer (the borrower) who accepted a $600 appraisal fee. Sounds like customary and reasonable.

Do the lenders and AMCs call back to those millions and say we lied and there are other fees?

I have little exposure to AMCs and am happy for it but what I see is the folks who charged appraisal fees and then took a cut have made their own beds. They have created the appraisal fee acceptable to the consumers which appears to be C and R. The greed of these AMCs I read about on here is soon going to come back and bite them and they deserve. it.

Thank God for commercial work.

 

[PropertyEconomics]

I don't care what AMCs say about the fees they are paying. They don't get to decide what is R & C. The lenders will. Both lenders and AMCs will be exposed so all parties will be seekign indemnifications.

This quote troubles me a great deal ... Lenders SHOULD NOT decide what is R&C .. APPRAISERS SHOULD .... what other business does a total outside entity get to decide your pricing .. well except for a certain large retailer who has bullied their suppliers for years.

Appraisers should set their own fees.

 

[Meandering]

Do the lenders and AMCs call back to those millions and say we lied and there are other fees?

I have little exposure to AMCs and am happy for it but what I see is the folks who charged appraisal fees and then took a cut have made their own beds. They have created the appraisal fee acceptable to the consumers which appears to be C and R. The greed of these AMCs I read about on here is soon going to come back and bite them and they deserve. it.

One good lawyer on the way........ And the game will be up!