Rural Cemetery (Commercial or Residential)

[Vic Stanionis]

Greetings:

I hope a General Appraiser (from NYS) can assist a certified Residential appraiser from NY. I had a call this morning from a potential client asking if I could appraise a rural cemetery (that hasn't been maintained in many years (if ever) until a recent improvement to one site (which now has a covered portico over it) and most are unmarked. I performed an land appraisal on the adjacent property to the north of this parcel which shares an unimproved access road and similar roadway / water boundary along its eastern and western boundaries. I am concerned as to whether my licensing will be sufficient to appraise this cemetery and vacant land that encompases this 20 acre parcel. Can a general appraiser from New York please respond and let me know if a cert. residential appraiser could appraise this property for this client?

I did speak to a local general appraiser in my town this morning who I have met at education classes and other appraisal functions and he said that I could appraise it, since NY never finalized whether cemeteries are considered commercial properties. I would like to get a second opinion on that since I thought I read on Appraisers Forum that they are considered commercial properties (or maybe that was for churches/houses of worship). I'd just like clarification on this and if there are any particular things I should include or watch out for while performing this assignment if I accept it. I still have to find out the purpose and how this person is affiliated with the property because I don't believe they are the person on the tax records but they said it was for title insurance briefly during our short conversation.

Any assistance is appreciated. Thanks.

Vic S.

 

[Mountain Man]

A cemetery is not usable land, unless they are still selling plots then it's a complex commercial & business valuation. There are lots of grave sites found that cause a halt to construction. Remember reading about this one lately...
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sidesho...uction-at-univ--of-mississippi-193203618.html

 

[Michigan CG]

I have a general license and would not appraise a cemetery. In my mind it is very complex. I have heard of five figure fees for some cemetery appraisals.

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

Well, I guess it has a lot of "residents".... multifamily sort of

I would wonder what such a tract needs appraised for?

A- in most states it is illegal to remove the stones and use as ag or building land
B- if a private pioneer cemetery, it may have restrictions on lot sales (like no charge or only local residents, etc)
C- who even "owns" it? The public? The state? The county? A private person?
D - What restrictions are in the chain of title?
E - is the health department involved.

I don't think I would want to touch this. Especially if someone has purchased land with a pioneer cemetery on it and now wants to doze it over (it happens..but is almost always done illegally. I even know a Baptist preacher who dozed one when he found a family member leaving flowers on the graves on his property.) You best walk from this little project. it's poison.

 

[Howard Klahr]

Your bigger concern is not whether you are permitted to perform this assignment under your license category bit rather if you meet the competency provision of USPAP.

With regard to licensing, I do not believe that NY is a mandatory state so it will depend on the intended use and user of this assignment.

 

[Meandering]

A few years ago, I did a couple.

Understand there is a wide difference in income and expenses between church run cemeteries and privately run cemeteries.

Generally, churches benefit from lots of volunteer laborers for upkeep and maintenance which hides those numbers. Remember, graves need grass cut into perpetuity in church cemeteries.

Private cemeteries might be on 99 year leases for spots, depends on what they are writing. Not all cemeteries let your remains stay in the same spot into perpetuity.

There are different expenses, believe it or not, for cemeteries that do not allow upright headstones, then for those that only allow footstones. Upright headstones cause erosion issues over time, and require more weed wacking. The erosion requires an allowance for potential back filling needed due to rainwater running around them, ground hogs, and vandalism. Generally, once headstones are in place, you can not assume they will be replaced with less expensive foot stones.

If you have the time to do all the research and have good data on your subject, it's a great learning experience.


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[Vic Stanionis]

Wooded Rural Cemetery over grown/ w/ no headstones nor memorials on majority of plots

Thanks for those that have replied. Just to give you some additional info on the subject. This rural cemetery is known as Lawson cemetery (first Afro-American cemetery in the area). Approx. 30 sites according to online research. Only one granite headstone covered by that portico I mentioned in the prior post of Robert C. Lawson the most prominent person and his wife to be buried in this location.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_C._Lawson

http://putnamgraveyards.com/putnamvalley/lawson/index.html

Here are links to two sites (above) I found that explain the subject's history, however there is no grass to be maintained, only exposed dirt during warmer temp/tree covered/leaf covered and now snow covered unmarked plot except for the noted above. As I mentioned in the prior post, the client sent a current survey (above ground / conventional not using ground penetrating radar) that shows what appears to be the cemetery area marked off w/ dotted line, and the remaining area appears to be undeveloped / undisturbed land. Client stated land allocation percentage/use is 20% cemetery and 80% vacant land (however wetlands/aquifer/watershed and public health restrictions are in effect in this area). Verification will have be confirmed w/ public records/maps/public health/etc.

Note this is just preliminary research...I have done quite a bit of the research since I appraised the adjacent property north of the cemetery a few months ago and aware of the public data available and survey's performed. Do you think this is a wise move to attempt given the data I do have but I do not have professional expertise appraising cemeteries and their adjacent surplus land surrounding them (at least that is how it is presently appears and what the highest and best use is will have to be determined). I do have a senior general appraiser who offered to look over my report and sign if needed who has appraised in this area for many years (at least three times as long as I have been appraising).

Any comments are appreciated. Thanks again for those that took the time to provide their insights and own experience regarding similar assignments.

Vic S.

 

[Howard Klahr]

If the grave sites are not marked, you may need an archeological report to assist in determining the boundaries of the cemetery. Also you'll need to identify the historical status to evaluate the contribution to value of that designation, if any. And to clearly understand all of the state and local regulations related to cemeteries and burial sites.

 

[Tim The Enchanter]

Sounds exceedingly complex, I wouldn't even think about it.

But if you feel up for it and have a CG to help, make sure you quote a sufficient fee.
Seems like it would be really time consuming.

I wonder if cemetery appraisal would be worthwhile as a specialty. :icon_lol:

 

[Michigan CG]

..............Do you think this is a wise move to attempt given the data I do have but I do not have professional expertise appraising cemeteries and their adjacent surplus land surrounding them (at least that is how it is presently appears and what the highest and best use is will have to be determined). I do have a senior general appraiser who offered to look over my report and sign if needed who has appraised in this area for many years (at least three times as long as I have been appraising).

Any comments are appreciated. Thanks again for those that took the time to provide their insights and own experience regarding similar assignments.

Vic S.

Vic,

You are not going to like my opinion, but here it is. I think it would be completely unwise for you to attempt the appraisal as there are specific ways commercial properties are appraised.

I have appraised shopping malls, hotels, huge acreage properties, grain elevators and many other properties. I would not appraise the property and actually have a book in my library about this subject somewhere. There are accepted techniques for different property types and for a cemetery I do not know what the accepted techniques are.

A few years ago I was asked to bid on appraising a cemetery along with two other appraisers on a local bank list of approved appraisers. None of us wanted the assignment. The bank asked again, would you bid on this. In the end the three appraisers contacted would not bid on the assignment as none of us felt competent to do so. Rumor has it they found an MAI who would do it but his fee was over $10,000 if I remember correctly, although it has been a few years.

You aren't going to like my comments about having a CG sign either but here it is: As to having a local CG appraiser with immense TIME in the industry (notice I did not say EXPERIENCE) who is willing to sign the report I don't think that he is qualified. That is very judgmental of me for knowing so little but here are the reasons. First of all with a complex assignment it would be typical operating procedure for the CG who knows how to do the report to tell you he will do the report with your assistance as if he knows how to do the report he will have an idea how to set up the reporting format and what is needed in the report.

Why would he want to take a report from you and have you reformat the report to include everything that is needed in a narrative report and to fit his writing style? If I had a CR appraiser come to me and insist on writing a report for a certain property type I would send the appraiser a template to work from and have him fill in the "blanks". That is how it is typically done.

Your report, should you accept the assignment will be at a minimal, 80 pages. Why would a guy with a CG license put his license on the line for a complex property?

I know I am making assumptions and we all know about assumptions. But if this guy has ever appraised a cemetery then he would guide you significantly in the process. If he has not ever appraised a cemetery then you might as well ask me to sign it as we have the same amount of experience.

And then you add this in:

......(first Afro-American cemetery in the area). Approx. 30 sites according to online research. Only one granite headstone covered by that portico I mentioned in the prior post of Robert C. Lawson the most prominent person and his wife to be buried in this location.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_C._Lawson

http://putnamgraveyards.com/putnamva...son/index.html

That adds icing on the cake, the really expensive icing....gold plated icing....

A historical property? Is it on the national registry? Being this old and there are no new burials?

I would say that not only does your client need a person who has done this type of assignment, they need an expert on the property type.

I could be all wrong about this....but I would bet I am right on a lot of it. I am guessing that the fee for this assignment starts with a "1" and has four digits after the "1".

Good luck in your decision.