- Joined
- Mar 30, 2005
- Professional Status
- Certified General Appraiser
- State
- New York
In the publishing word, reread was utilized. We didn't have such highly respected English references as "quora" back in the day.
"Incorrect" is a sentence fragment.
The Premier Online Community for Real Estate Appraisers!
-
Welcome to AppraisersForum.com, the premier online
community for the discussion of real estate appraisal. Register a free account to be able to post and unlock additional forums and features.
AQB Update On Proposed Changes To Appraiser Qualifications
- Thread starter Dale Floyd
- Start date
- Status
In the publishing word, reread was utilized. We didn't have such highly respected English references as "quora" back in the day.
"Incorrect" is a sentence fragment.
gregb
Elite Member
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2011
- Professional Status
- Certified General Appraiser
- State
- California
Uniform state exams were not in place until after 2008.
http://www.appraisalfoundation.org/imis/TAF/AQB_National_Exam.aspx
TRESinc
Elite Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2011
- Professional Status
- Licensed Appraiser
- State
- Ohio
where is your information to backup your claim of being an appraiser?
D
Deleted member 130081
Guest
We all appear to agree that the public perception and trust of the profession is important and anything we can do (within reason) to advance a good perception is a good thing.
How to go about that is what’s on the table.
As experienced appraisers and skilled analysts, I am still struggling with those of you who continue to advocate a 4-year degree as a reasonable course of action. Some of you are so off-track with your basis for that conclusion it’s frightening. Some of you present a valid argument, though I would comment you may not have thought it all the way through.
So, let’s say the 4-year requirement sticks, entry to the profession be damned for certain individuals. Will this requirement truly produce a better appraiser and subsequently, a better appraisal? Well, the answer depends on if education is really the culprit of a poor appraisal or not. I think we can all agree some classes in writing ought to be part of the core appraisal education and that by improving the communication skills of appraisers, the trust may improve. But will that really produce a better appraisal? Or will only the ability of an appraiser to talk their way out of a poor data situation improve? I think the latter. And while I will concede that’s not a bad thing, it still falls short of actually producing a “better” (or should I say supported?) appraisal. So, if a better appraisal cannot be attained through advanced appraiser education, why advocate for that?
At the end of the day, a good or bad appraisal is contingent on good or bad data. We (most of us - omg) know this. Our clients and the public however, do not know this. Therefore, I would conclude it is not the appraiser in need of additional education, rather our clients and the public. Once they understand that we do the best we can with what we have and that sometimes there is only so far we can go, the perception will improve. This will also create a scenario where experience actually counts for something, as it should in my opinion.
A doctorate in appraisal will not cure bad data and the subsequent weak appraisal. Clients and the public who are in general ignorant to appraisal theory and available data, conclude the problem must be the education of the appraiser. It baffles me that the people who (ought to) know better, meaning appraisers, sometimes think the same, as evidenced in this thread.
My recommendation is to go back to the specific course requirements of the past, maybe bolster those with some additional writing classes and leave the 2500 hours to become certified where it is (that’s over two years). Remove the licensed credential and only have the certified licensed (there is so little difference between the two). Continue to make the tests difficult, but attainable.
I will never forget my first few appraisals right out of school. I had high marks in school and passed the certified exam on the first go. While working with my mentor, I questioned what we were supposed to do when the coursework methods and techniques could not be applied due to the poor data. He just laughed and said, “Yea, you are going to need to forget about some of that stuff because you can rarely apply much of it.” “Why do they teach it then?” I asked. “Not sure. I suppose because sometimes it’s applicable and if we can do it that way, we should.” He said and then added, “We do the best we can with what we have.” This has always been the case and will always be the case, until the day when all homes are built the same and enough transactions occur to better populate our data pools. Until then, no amount of additional education is going to help. Experience however, will.
Too many appraisers think too much of themselves. The job is not that hard, but it becomes hard when the data is not there and the client expects (demands) it to be. There is no mathematical formula to appraise homes (in the current landscape of available data, in the context of the GSE forms and in terms of client expectations), yet so many continue down that road and advocate more education to produce a better formula. If a formula was all it took, we would have been extinct long ago.
We seem to forget the primary reason we are hired is not out of a need for a skilled professional, but the need for an independent and ethical one. The need for a skilled and experienced professional is secondary. You can’t tell me a high-school student, armed with our math and data, could not produce an appraisal of the same quality we do now. It just isn’t that advanced. Then again, maybe some of you need a college education to come to that conclusion. Or, maybe because some of you have spent thousands of dollars attaining a college degree, are slow to admit it.
Experience will improve judgement and judgement does not get enough credit nowadays, when it ought to get the brunt of it. “How do you know this?” “Because I have seen it over and over and over again.” “Prove it with your data please.” “Shall I upload the 10 years of sales data I have analyzed for you?”
The client expectations of today are changed from the past. They are in many cases unrealistic. That is a problem we ought to spend time addressing. Client and public knowledge of appraisal theory, context and data are lacking. That is also a problem we ought to spend time addressing.
I think if the day ever comes that appraisers are required to present the work file to the client, including the calculation sheets of adjustments, the tune of appraisers will change very quickly. Where will some of you lay the blame then? How will you blame the skippys of the industry when you won’t be able to “support” your own conclusions with the data? What will the same of you have to say about ethics then? It is unethical to present a pre-determined conclusion. Is it not also unethical to claim your analysis is backed with relevant data when it is not? Lip service is not the same as market evidence. How naked will some of you feel when the Great Oz is revealed to be only human? I would advocate that instead of claiming the problem is education, that the truth be told and we convey the problem is the data. And if you don’t have the data, the next best thing is experience.
How to go about that is what’s on the table.
As experienced appraisers and skilled analysts, I am still struggling with those of you who continue to advocate a 4-year degree as a reasonable course of action. Some of you are so off-track with your basis for that conclusion it’s frightening. Some of you present a valid argument, though I would comment you may not have thought it all the way through.
So, let’s say the 4-year requirement sticks, entry to the profession be damned for certain individuals. Will this requirement truly produce a better appraiser and subsequently, a better appraisal? Well, the answer depends on if education is really the culprit of a poor appraisal or not. I think we can all agree some classes in writing ought to be part of the core appraisal education and that by improving the communication skills of appraisers, the trust may improve. But will that really produce a better appraisal? Or will only the ability of an appraiser to talk their way out of a poor data situation improve? I think the latter. And while I will concede that’s not a bad thing, it still falls short of actually producing a “better” (or should I say supported?) appraisal. So, if a better appraisal cannot be attained through advanced appraiser education, why advocate for that?
At the end of the day, a good or bad appraisal is contingent on good or bad data. We (most of us - omg) know this. Our clients and the public however, do not know this. Therefore, I would conclude it is not the appraiser in need of additional education, rather our clients and the public. Once they understand that we do the best we can with what we have and that sometimes there is only so far we can go, the perception will improve. This will also create a scenario where experience actually counts for something, as it should in my opinion.
A doctorate in appraisal will not cure bad data and the subsequent weak appraisal. Clients and the public who are in general ignorant to appraisal theory and available data, conclude the problem must be the education of the appraiser. It baffles me that the people who (ought to) know better, meaning appraisers, sometimes think the same, as evidenced in this thread.
My recommendation is to go back to the specific course requirements of the past, maybe bolster those with some additional writing classes and leave the 2500 hours to become certified where it is (that’s over two years). Remove the licensed credential and only have the certified licensed (there is so little difference between the two). Continue to make the tests difficult, but attainable.
I will never forget my first few appraisals right out of school. I had high marks in school and passed the certified exam on the first go. While working with my mentor, I questioned what we were supposed to do when the coursework methods and techniques could not be applied due to the poor data. He just laughed and said, “Yea, you are going to need to forget about some of that stuff because you can rarely apply much of it.” “Why do they teach it then?” I asked. “Not sure. I suppose because sometimes it’s applicable and if we can do it that way, we should.” He said and then added, “We do the best we can with what we have.” This has always been the case and will always be the case, until the day when all homes are built the same and enough transactions occur to better populate our data pools. Until then, no amount of additional education is going to help. Experience however, will.
Too many appraisers think too much of themselves. The job is not that hard, but it becomes hard when the data is not there and the client expects (demands) it to be. There is no mathematical formula to appraise homes (in the current landscape of available data, in the context of the GSE forms and in terms of client expectations), yet so many continue down that road and advocate more education to produce a better formula. If a formula was all it took, we would have been extinct long ago.
We seem to forget the primary reason we are hired is not out of a need for a skilled professional, but the need for an independent and ethical one. The need for a skilled and experienced professional is secondary. You can’t tell me a high-school student, armed with our math and data, could not produce an appraisal of the same quality we do now. It just isn’t that advanced. Then again, maybe some of you need a college education to come to that conclusion. Or, maybe because some of you have spent thousands of dollars attaining a college degree, are slow to admit it.
Experience will improve judgement and judgement does not get enough credit nowadays, when it ought to get the brunt of it. “How do you know this?” “Because I have seen it over and over and over again.” “Prove it with your data please.” “Shall I upload the 10 years of sales data I have analyzed for you?”
The client expectations of today are changed from the past. They are in many cases unrealistic. That is a problem we ought to spend time addressing. Client and public knowledge of appraisal theory, context and data are lacking. That is also a problem we ought to spend time addressing.
I think if the day ever comes that appraisers are required to present the work file to the client, including the calculation sheets of adjustments, the tune of appraisers will change very quickly. Where will some of you lay the blame then? How will you blame the skippys of the industry when you won’t be able to “support” your own conclusions with the data? What will the same of you have to say about ethics then? It is unethical to present a pre-determined conclusion. Is it not also unethical to claim your analysis is backed with relevant data when it is not? Lip service is not the same as market evidence. How naked will some of you feel when the Great Oz is revealed to be only human? I would advocate that instead of claiming the problem is education, that the truth be told and we convey the problem is the data. And if you don’t have the data, the next best thing is experience.
J Grant
Elite Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2003
- Professional Status
- Certified Residential Appraiser
- State
- Florida
The non degree newbies will not return the favor by allowing them a path in, they will compete with you and lower their fees to take your work away.
Decide if it is your best interest to be altruistic and provide alternate paths , or better to protect the appraisers who already are licensed. Limiting the numbers of trainees (which the degree requirement accomplishes) will push fees higher for the appraisers already licensed, and by extension, newcomers . The alternate paths/dropping the degree will mean more trainees, allowing AMC's to aggressively recruit and push fees down.
Since everyone licensed is grandfathered in, realize this can can impact your income the rest of your working life as an appraiser. if appraisers are divided about this, the AQB will bend to AMC interests and drop the degree requirement,
Evincere
Elite Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2002
- Professional Status
- Certified Residential Appraiser
- State
- Florida
George Hatch
Elite Member
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2002
- Professional Status
- Certified General Appraiser
- State
- California
I live in the San Diego region. Our local football team (Chargers) wanted public subsidies toward a new football stadium. Some people agreed and some people didn't.
One of the most common arguments offered on the "pro" side after they lost the economics argument was that the city would suffer in prestige and become a second rate town if it didn't have a pro football team. The appeal to vanity.
To me, that's what the "it will increase our standing in society" argument most closely resembles - the appeal to vanity.
Of course, I surf so I really have no use for professional sports of any kind, and I am completely apathetic - if not somewhat hostile - to tourism and transplants just on general principle. So for me the appeal of SD being considered a less desirable destination for tourists and transplants by tourists and transplants is a strong argument in favor of sending the Chargers up the road to Inglewood (C'ya), but I digress.
Lawyers have college and other education requirements as a minimum qualification, but nobody likes them. And the reason nobody likes them is the common perception that many of them are unethical. Not incompetent, but unethical. Aside from the malpractice industry, whatever other bad press the doctors, the accountants, the clergy or teachers have it's almost never about their competency but about how well their actions match their assertions for ethical conduct.
So AFAICT the "improve our standing in society" argument is most *effectively" addressed by improving the public's perception of our ethical conduct. Competency is commonly perceived in terms of what an appraiser is *capable* of doing, which is sometimes different than what they commonly do. What this all boils down to for me is that I think the AQB has far more evidence to the point that most of our competency problems are internal in origin and are attributable to poor conduct and performance by the so-called supervisors and peers than by trainees who are apparently smart enough to pass our courses and the state test but allegedly too stupid to write a sentence.
If you have a specific complaint about a missing skill then let's address it directly with the 500 meter headshot, not with the artillery barrage and hope we catch the one problem we're looking for out in the open.
One of the most common arguments offered on the "pro" side after they lost the economics argument was that the city would suffer in prestige and become a second rate town if it didn't have a pro football team. The appeal to vanity.
To me, that's what the "it will increase our standing in society" argument most closely resembles - the appeal to vanity.
Of course, I surf so I really have no use for professional sports of any kind, and I am completely apathetic - if not somewhat hostile - to tourism and transplants just on general principle. So for me the appeal of SD being considered a less desirable destination for tourists and transplants by tourists and transplants is a strong argument in favor of sending the Chargers up the road to Inglewood (C'ya), but I digress.
Lawyers have college and other education requirements as a minimum qualification, but nobody likes them. And the reason nobody likes them is the common perception that many of them are unethical. Not incompetent, but unethical. Aside from the malpractice industry, whatever other bad press the doctors, the accountants, the clergy or teachers have it's almost never about their competency but about how well their actions match their assertions for ethical conduct.
So AFAICT the "improve our standing in society" argument is most *effectively" addressed by improving the public's perception of our ethical conduct. Competency is commonly perceived in terms of what an appraiser is *capable* of doing, which is sometimes different than what they commonly do. What this all boils down to for me is that I think the AQB has far more evidence to the point that most of our competency problems are internal in origin and are attributable to poor conduct and performance by the so-called supervisors and peers than by trainees who are apparently smart enough to pass our courses and the state test but allegedly too stupid to write a sentence.
If you have a specific complaint about a missing skill then let's address it directly with the 500 meter headshot, not with the artillery barrage and hope we catch the one problem we're looking for out in the open.
Last edited:
BRCJR
Elite Member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2005
- Professional Status
- Licensed Appraiser
- State
- Virginia
Please report that to Microsoft. Try Microsoft Word spell check and see what happens.
J Grant
Elite Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2003
- Professional Status
- Certified Residential Appraiser
- State
- Florida
If appraisers are disliked it is not because of ethics, it is because of our role. Nobody likes folks who work for the IRS and dentists are so disliked they have a high suicide rate. That's just the way it is for certain fields.
Regarding lawyers ;that is a stereo type-most of attorneys are ethical. It's the legal system that is full of loopholes. While people may not "like" lawyers, but they sure pay them well when needed. A profession is not a popularity contest.
If we are going to be disliked, we might as well make a decent income. We can be the most ethical group in the world, but nobody likes us when we "kill" their deal or delay processing by a day.
While a degree does not make people ethical, lack of a degree does not make people ethical either. .
Regarding lawyers ;that is a stereo type-most of attorneys are ethical. It's the legal system that is full of loopholes. While people may not "like" lawyers, but they sure pay them well when needed. A profession is not a popularity contest.
If we are going to be disliked, we might as well make a decent income. We can be the most ethical group in the world, but nobody likes us when we "kill" their deal or delay processing by a day.
While a degree does not make people ethical, lack of a degree does not make people ethical either. .
BRCJR
Elite Member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2005
- Professional Status
- Licensed Appraiser
- State
- Virginia
The fee and turn times are what lenders are pushing as a reason to use computer generated values. There is a push to not have an appraisal, on residential property, unless the lender just wants one for their comfort level.
- Status