Where Do You Think "geographic Competency" Begins And Ends?

[Joe Flacco]

Bitter, angry....two sides of the same coin. George's view is legitimate even if you disagree with it. If he truly believes that a college degree is not necessary prerequisite for becoming a competent residential appraiser (and he does seem to truly believe that), then there is no reason for you to be angry. If he is correct in his view (I am not saying that he is) that a college degree requirement contributes little or nothing to the ability to become a competent residential appraiser, then he would be correct in his assessment that a college degree requirement would be nothing more than an unnecessary barrier to entry of potential competitors for existing appraisers. I don't agree with George's opinion on this matter, but his position on this matter is not completely off the wall and his arguments in support of his position are not illogical.

His whole argument is basically that since somebody like Denis has become a very competent appraiser without a bachelors degree, there should not be a bachelors degree requirement. That's BS. More than his rational for why it should not be required, what makes me more angry is his insistence that those that want a bachelors degree requirement is only for their personal economic benefit.

 

[George Hatch]

Hurting the profession in economic terms can and does also hurt it in nearly every aspect. How can you deny that?

For example, do you think the economic benefit of starving appraisers out to an under supply due to low AMC payout is going to help the profession or hurt it, and likewise what impact would that have on borrowers and lenders?

Do you think the AMC practice of awarding by low fee which means a less experienced appraiser might be geting 15 hours a week ( economic benefit to them), while more experienced appraises on panel get none , (economic harm to them ) leading experienced, quality minded appraisers to leave GSE work, either to quit or pursue commercial or private work- result is the appraiser doing 15 a week needs to pump them out with short cuts, do you think that economic imbalance hurts or harms the appraisal profession? (and by extension users and borrowers)

It is hypocritical, for TMD himself who borught it up, to take the position that economic imbalances do not hurt the profession. The 2 examples I gave are limited to keep post short.

Okay so then why are you complaining about me calling you on the conflation of business with principles?

 

[timd354]

I do not mind one little bit if we discuss the economic ramifications and business interests of the profession because I think those are valid and legitimate issues to discuss. Let's do that, openly and in exactly those terms.

I agree....the problem is that far too many people cannot seem to be honest about the fact that they are arguing in favor of their own economic interests and instead try to disguise their arguments as concerns about the borrower, public trust, anti-trust, the FTC or whatever as if they are acting selflessly. The really sad part is that when they do this, it is usually very transparent and does not fool anyone who matters and instead accomplishes nothing but reduce their own credibility.

 

[Joe Flacco]

I agree....the problem is that far too many people cannot seem to be honest about the fact that they are arguing in favor of their own economic interests and instead try to disguise their arguments as concerns about the borrower, public trust, anti-trust, the FTC or whatever as if they are acting selflessly. The really sad part is that when they do this, it is usually very transparent and does not fool anyone who matters and instead accomplishes nothing but reduce their own credibility.

So when you said that you think that the bachelors degree requirement should have stayed, it was for your own economic benefit? lol

 

[timd354]

WRT "hurting the profession" let me ask everyone this:

How often in your career has a client asked about your academic education whilst deciding whether or not to engage you?

How often have you made it onto an approval panel or been awarded an assignment because you had the degree and the next person didn't?

If you've ever worked on staff, do you think your academic education a factor in that hiring decision, or was it just a checkbox or did they even bother to ask you.


I do not expect the answers to any of these questions to go all in one direction. All "yes" or all "no". I am interested in your direct and indirect experiences with these issues, though.

Since you asked everyone:

While working in the field I was never asked by any client about my academic education. I was never asked that question until I was hired at Freddie Mac and then at my current company, which is a mortgage insurer.

 

[J Grant]

I do not mind one little bit if we discuss the economic ramifications and business interests of the profession because I think those are valid and legitimate issues to discuss. Let's do that, openly and in exactly those terms.

But if the topic of a discussion is how to develop a competency you didn't initially start out with at the outset of an assignment then injecting the non-sequitur of competition control into that discussion doesn't lead us to an informed opinion about the initial question. If the question is about what passes for meaningful and not misleading to intended users then injecting the non-sequitur of competition control into that discussion doesn't lead us to an informed opinion about that initial question. If the question is about what what will improve the public's perception of our profession then injecting the non-sequitur of competition control into that discussion doesn't lead us to an informed opinion about that initial question. Etc., etc.

I agree with first part of the post. The second starts off well and then becomes muddled. forget public perception, which can be different than actual harm to public over a long period of time from policies they are not aware of.

The problem is when business interests of those in charge of ordering, be it fee or turn time, or other, when those interests make doing competent work impossible or very difficult, it is part of the discussion.

To pretend this is not a huge issue in GSE work is absurd, nearly every appraiser who has worked for an AMC or order dept with low fees, fast turn times and or having service scorecards driving selection has posted about it adversely affecting their work, or driving them out of doing tat segment of work. IT is not that appraisers are whiners, it is that this is a huge problem. Of course the alternative is to stop working for these companies and many do, but where does that leave borrowers and lenders who rely on these assignments, and what is the point of keeping on driving good appraisers out, or making those left work at warp speed to make up for a low fee ( which does not get passed on to borrower) .

To pretend that assignment conditions does not affect ability to be competent, is not possible. If aka geo competence is the issue, or more accurately, developing competence to do an appraisal in an unfamiliar area is the issue, then it makes a difference if the turn time is 24-48 hours vs 4-5 days . The fee might also enter into it, such as how much time an appraiser can devote to research And of course if it is desktop or visiting the area. Whether we like it or not, assignment conditions do intersect with competence. .

 

[George Hatch]

His whole argument is basically that since somebody like Denis has become a very competent appraiser without a bachelors degree, there should not be a bachelors degree requirement. That's BS. More than his rational for why it should not be required, what makes me more angry is his insistence that those that want a bachelors degree requirement is only for their personal economic benefit.

Denis cracked my top-10 favorite posters the first week he was here. But I have seen *many* competent appraisers over the years with little/no college. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I've run into exceedingly few people who had what it took to get through the gauntlet but who were too ill educated to learn how to appraise. I saw a lot of them who were poorly trained and supervised, but (IMO) that's a QE provider and supervisor problem, not a trainee problem. Which I think are much more proximate causes of incompetency than whether or not someone ever took an Intro to psychology or music appreciation or comparative religions course.

One reason my experience in the subject is more broad than your's is I've spent 3x as long in this business and engaged it on a broader scale than you have. In fact, if you came into this business in 2007 whatever idiot let you in contributed to the oversupply that you are still struggling against. That greedy POS supervisor is the one who stabbed JGrant and a lot of other participants in this thread in the back - not me. If they hadn't been greedy and short sighted you and all the puppies who came in the same time you came in wouldn't even be here.

 

[George Hatch]

Since you asked everyone:

While working in the field I was never asked by any client about my academic education. I was never asked that question until I was hired at Freddie Mac and then at my current company, which is a mortgage insurer.

I knew when I asked that your education was a big factor in your current situation. And invariable at that advanced level of play.

Weren't you and I were at odds back when the HVCC came along? Or am I thinking of someone else?

 

[bnmappraisal]

WRT "hurting the profession" let me ask everyone this:

How often in your career has a client asked about your academic education whilst deciding whether or not to engage you?

None that I'm aware of - only if I was CR or not

How often have you made it onto an approval panel or been awarded an assignment because you had the degree and the next person didn't?

None that I'm aware of

 

[J Grant]

Since you asked everyone:

While working in the field I was never asked by any client about my academic education. I was never asked that question until I was hired at Freddie Mac and then at my current company, which is a mortgage insurer.

Back in those days, you were probably asked if you could "make value" Or do a "comp check". If you were still fee appraising now, the question would be "how fast/how low a fee" ( with exceptions of the ethical and actual due diligence clients )

The problem then, as now, is ethical clients have to compete with the less ethical ones, as appraisers do with the same. Which should not be a factor consigning Tax payer interpreter, but it is still present.

More training and education leads to better judgement and skills, overall, of professionals and appraisers are no exception .