Where Do You Think "geographic Competency" Begins And Ends?

[timd354]

Ask anyone who was here - I have never wavered on the topic. We used to scorch trainees who came in and criticized our reluctance to take on new blood - and every one of them told us we needed them because we were all dying.

I was here at that time and can confirm that you repeatedly were warning people about that as other fools at the time were bragging about how much they growing their business by bringing new people.

 

[timd354]

I didn't train anybody. So why are you pointing fingers at me?

So again, can you tell me why a bachelors degree is needed for CG license but not a CR license?

Flacco, you need to go back and read George's earlier posts in this thread as he has never made that argument. In fact, he has stated on several occasions that he does not believe a degree should be needed for a CG license.

 

[Joe Flacco]

Flacco, you need to go back and read George's earlier posts in this thread as he has never made that argument. In fact, he has stated on several occasions that he does not believe a degree should be needed for a CG license.

I have never seen that comment. I have asked him several times and he ignores every time. If that is what he believes then what about the CG opportunities for his minorities?

 

[George Hatch]

My mentor trained one appraiser in his whole career and that is me. He was a good mentor. You can leave him out of this.

You overlook the fact that the overall competence level is too low. Does not matter if you have seen "many" without college. Supervision or experience is not what develops analysis skills. A person with a college degree is more likely to have analysis skills. We are talking about odds of success increasing. It is not what is the minimum education level necessary.

Again, you always dodge my questions. Why is a college degree needed for CG license?

Asked and answered. You are not capable of asking a question I would feel compelled to duck.

Then I ask you again, why have a college degree requirement for the CG license?

I don't think that's necessary either. The same 7-specific-course alternative we had before was plenty - in my opinion. I've never said otherwise.

I personally worked for 2 commercial appraisers who hadn't graduated from college, one of whom was the chief appraiser at the bank I was working at, and the other was my supervisor at that bank when I moved to an outlying branch office. They had adequate academic skills for what they were doing, too.

I've known a fairly good number of practicing CGs over the years who never made it through a 4yr degree. True story.

As for overall competency is too low, what evidence do you have of that in the first place, and what evidence do you have that "more likely to have analysis skills" is lacking among appraisers by the time they get through their experience hours?

IRL, I've seen a lot of incompetent appraisals that were performed by people who had the skills to do the right thing but simply failed to follow through. So yeah, the people acted incompetently but it wasn't because they were actually incapable of doing the do. I've never met ANY appraiser who was incapable of responding to some instruction on an SFR assignment if they were sufficiently motivated to follow through.

And yes, appraiser qualifications criteria most definitely is about establishing a minimum standard.

 

[Joe Flacco]

asked and answered



As for overall competency is too low, what evidence do you have of that in the first place, and what evidence do you have that "more likely to have analysis skills" is lacking among appraisers by the time they get through their experience hours?

IRL, I've seen a lot of incompetent appraisals that were performed by people who had the skills to do the right thing but simply failed to follow through. So yeah, the people acted incompetently but it wasn't because they were actually incapable of doing the do. I've never met ANY appraiser who was incapable of responding to some instruction on an SFR assignment if they were sufficiently motivated to follow through.

And yes, appraiser qualifications criteria most definitely is about establishing a minimum standard.

Minimum standard that results in adequate overall competence level across teh profession.

If you actually believe that competence levels are fine then there is nothing left to argue about. It is no wonder this profession is going to sht. What a joke.

 

[J Grant]

Had supervisors refrained from training resulting in a small population, the lenders would complain about getting assignments fulfilled and had turned to alternate products years ago. In fact it is a threat of a "shortage" that they are using as a rationale for these changes now.

While I can agree that more trainees /supply demand can affect fees, the main problem with fees on GSE work with AMC involvement clearly is a result of the blended fee issue/payout unique to the current system. We can see an AMC and direct order lender can pay vastly different amounts to an appraiser for same type assignment in same regional area with same supply of appraisers available.. (none of the savings passed on to consumer is a given, it goes to AMC profit)

Again, rather than shifting blame to trainees and such, I question why George or TMD are not troubled with this system. If they support it, come out and say so .

 

[Joe Flacco]

George still living with 90's expectations while it is 2018. What a joke.

 

[George Hatch]

Minimum standard that results in adequate overall competence level across teh profession.

If you actually believe that competence levels are fine then there is nothing left to argue about. It is no wonder this profession is going to sht. What a joke.

A speed limit of 65mph doesn't result in compliance among all drivers.

Qualification standards establish minimums for qualfications. Appraisal standards establish minimums for conduct and performance. Of themselves they don't "result in competence" except to the extent that people adhere to them.

 

[George Hatch]

While I can agree that more trainees /supply demand can affect fees, the main problem with fees on GSE work with AMC involvement clearly is a result of the blended fee issue/payout unique to the current system. We can see an AMC and direct order lender can pay vastly different amounts to an appraiser for same type assignment in same regional area with same supply of appraisers available.. (none of the savings passed on to consumer is a given, it goes to AMC profit)

Again, rather than shifting blame to trainees and such, I question why George or TMD are not troubled with this system. If they support it, come out and say so .

I never blamed trainees for anything. It was the supervisors who dug the hole you're in. While we're at it, they're also the ones who did all the field training and supervision.

As for the AMCs I don't care what happens to them. I am a bit AMC-averse by nature, if for no other reason than the fact that I'm not fond of bean counters. If you can persuade the banking regulators to outlaw them tomorrow that's fine by me. It won't change your real problem, though. If you could get the banking regulators to require cost plus that would actually work to the AMCs benefit because then you'd only have your competition to blame for why the AMCs have alternatives.

 

[George Hatch]

Since some of you seem to be bewildered by how I can approach these issues without giving what you consider to be critical business issues the same weight as you do, let me explain it like this:

Our profession has existed in one form or another for many years, long before I was even born. It exists precisely because there is a demand for referees or adjudicators or other impartial weighers of economic attributes when 2 or more parties are interacting with one another. Our profession exists to contribute to the level playing field between the various parties, and is only marketable to the extent those parties think we are doing our jobs. It existed before Fannie and it will continue to exist long after Fannie is sold for scrap to the Chinese. The professional standards we have are derivative in nature and the current expressions are just the most recent refinements of concepts, many of which were also articulated in print before I was even born.

Qualifications standards are more recent and are tied to licensing, but even that general topic has a history that extends way back in time.

So here's the thing: If I believe in the necessity of what we do, then the specifics of what we require now can be best described as the current expression of concepts that go all the way back to when the first bronze age buyer and seller of a cow approached some neutral 3rd party they both considered competent and impartial to get a valuation. If I believe in the abilities of the people who undertake this role to learn these requirements for ethical and competent conduct, then I have to also believe that a competent individual will be able to find a way to thrive in a market for services to the extent that market is viable.

This is why I aspire to be consistent with the underlying fundamentals and to not attempt to dork them for my (or our) personal interests, because IMO what we sell is our credibility and we are doing ourselves no favors when we blatantly act inconsistently with those underlying fundamentals for the express purpose of doing better for ourselves.

Hence my opinion, that whether or not an appraiser can get to a usable result - as defined by the user - by use of "inspection by other means" is a completely separate question from whether or not an appraiser can make a living doing those assignments under the current market conditions. Whether or not someone with a functional HS education is capable of learning how to competently perform at least some of these assignments is a separate question from whether our industry can accommodate every puppy the short sighted supervisors will breed. Whether of not gutting out the 4yr degree requirements will lead to a higher degree of ethical conduct such has worked for the legal profession is a separate question from whether your BA in psychology has equipped you to perform a regression analysis or ignore the emotional turmoil your "no" is causing these borrowers.

That's why I make the distinction between what it takes to do what we do vs how I can protect your market share.