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We're Back To The Beginning

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I know this is just a small snip of your total post #106 responding to another poster but it really stuck out to me JG ...
That's really silly because appraisals would never be bid on ebay or similar for lender work.
(my bold) Silly that appraisals would "never" be bid on ebay, etc??? They're basically already being bid. Actually, no I take that back, they are LITERALLY being bid on by some clients.

You yourself (and myself included) have commented on the bidding tactics of some AMCs and other lenders.

So whether we call it AMC or ebay or ... who cares?! Appraisals are already going out on bid(s) for lender work
 
I did not say the MBs I worked for. I said the lenders that had their own in house STAFF appraisers. If I remember correctly, you once had that position George. That was par for the course in the 90s. There was no schooling - no licensing - and certainly no independence. You learned the job by working for the bank/lender that you were employed with. THAT'S what I am referencing.

You seem to be underinformed. I had more independence from external meddling in my assignments when I worked on staff then I ever had with ANY of the MBs I worked for, either before or after. At the bank I worked at the loan officers weren't allowed to step foot on our floor or call an appraiser on the phone. If they had a dispute about an appraisal they had to go through their management which then interfaced with our management on a peer basis. And then our management defended us when we were right, or they scorched us when we were wrong. Which didn't happen very often. Now that wasn't the case at all banks, but it was standard at all the big operations in my region; and I know this based on my interactions with those appraisers who came through my CE courses years later.

As for people not being trained it's true that licensing equalized that situation, but prior to that most appraisers who were ever formally trained had been trained while working for either a lender or one of the big fee shops. It wasn't the staff appraisers who went from zero to being self employed in a year and learning on the borrower's dime; it was the fee appraisers in some of those fee shops. As for me, I took my first Appraisal 101 courses while I was in college, and then I took another 2-week course years later when I started working for a fee shop that an SRA was running - back when SRAs were part of the Society or Real Estate Appraisers. I took my other courses on my own dime after that but I learned the basics while working under supervision. For years - plural.

You don't see as many appraisal departments at the banks now for the same reason you don't see the residential fee shops with 20 and 50 fee appraisers anymore. In my county alone there had been at least a dozen fee shops of that size operating prior to licensing, not to mention all the other smaller shops of 4-10 heads.

I personally worked in fee shops with several fee appraisers who by that point had 10 and 20 years of experience appraising houses. They were working for split fees because they weren't economically viable working for themselves. People who came into appraising after licensing tend not to realize what it was really like.

Five years later almost all of those fee shops were gone; partly due to licensing but also partly due to technology. Prior to the 1990 or so it took equipment and dataplants that were much more expensive and much less effective in order to perform an appraisal. It simply wasn't economically feasible to work solo - you had to amortize those costs over several heads.

So now in the last few years the technology and the regs have once again resulted in more changes in the marketplace. These changes have rendered the door-to-door solicitation of MBs as economically unfeasible as the mid-sized fee shop where a dozen drones work for a designated appraiser who has all the connections.
 
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The tl;dr version is that cutting the MBs out of the loop in 2008 has had it's effects, but notwithstanding that the current environment could also have never have occurred without the previous effects of licensing (made everyone equal) and the constantly evolving technology (enabled everyone to work solo).

Appraiser independence relates strictly to external meddling in your assignments. Not whether you're working solo or as part of a larger group. The staff appraiser at the DOT or for the federal gov't may very well have all the isolation from advocacy they need to perform their assignments ethically, while the solo fee appraiser who is banging the loan officer may have no isolation from that advocacy.

And yes, I personally knew several fee appraisers who built their careers on "dating" loan processors and MBs.
 
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Appraisals are already going out on bid(s) for lender work
RIMS is a bid system. You can join it to get open random bids.
personally knew several fee appraisers who built their careers on "dating" loan processors and MBs.
I know one who got a lot of work "dating" one, until her husband found out and tried to beat him to death...Fast forward a few months and she divorced and they went back to the same game...just buddies of course.
 
You seem to be underinformed. I had more independence from external meddling in my assignments when I worked on staff then I ever had with ANY of the MBs I worked for, either before or after. At the bank I worked at the loan officers weren't allowed to step foot on our floor or call an appraiser on the phone. If they had a dispute about an appraisal they had to go through their management which then interfaced with our management on a peer basis. And then our management defended us when we were right, or they scorched us when we were wrong. Which didn't happen very often. Now that wasn't the case at all banks, but it was standard at all the big operations in my region; and I know this based on my interactions with those appraisers who came through my CE courses years later.

As for people not being trained it's true that licensing equalized that situation, but prior to that most appraisers who were ever formally trained had been trained while working for either a lender or one of the big fee shops. It wasn't the staff appraisers who went from zero to being self employed in a year and learning on the borrower's dime; it was the fee appraisers in some of those fee shops. As for me, I took my first Appraisal 101 courses while I was in college, and then I took another 2-week course years later when I started working for a fee shop that an SRA was running - back when SRAs were part of the Society or Real Estate Appraisers. I took my other courses on my own dime after that but I learned the basics while working under supervision. For years - plural.

You don't see as many appraisal departments at the banks now for the same reason you don't see the residential fee shops with 20 and 50 fee appraisers anymore. In my county alone there had been at least a dozen fee shops of that size operating prior to licensing, not to mention all the other smaller shops of 4-10 heads.

I personally worked in fee shops with several fee appraisers who by that point had 10 and 20 years of experience appraising houses. They were working for split fees because they weren't economically viable working for themselves. People who came into appraising after licensing tend not to realize what it was really like.

Five years later almost all of those fee shops were gone; partly due to licensing but also partly due to technology. Prior to the 1990 or so it took equipment and dataplants that were much more expensive and much less effective in order to perform an appraisal. It simply wasn't economically feasible to work solo - you had to amortize those costs over several heads.

So now in the last few years the technology and the regs have once again resulted in more changes in the marketplace. These changes have rendered the door-to-door solicitation of MBs as economically unfeasible as the mid-sized fee shop where a dozen drones work for a designated appraiser who has all the connections.

I have no doubt that you yourself were ethical George, and worked with ethical people.

However, how many examples do we need to showcase that banks can and will - in a nutshell - do whatever it takes to make a buck. Here is a quote from the meltdown in the 80's: "The Justice Department successfully used FIRREA to prosecute banks that made bad loans during the subprime mortgage crisis. The six largest banks paid $108 billion in fines. They also had to buy back tens of billions of bad mortgage-backed securities sold to investors on the secondary market. FIRREA was also used to prosecute rating agency Standard & Poors for saying those bad loans were safe investments."

Pretty bad isn't it? How did this happen? That's a topic for a book, not a blog.

Amazingly, that's almost exactly the scenario that happened AGAIN in 2008, which brought the ENTIRE country to its knees that time around. How did that happen AGAIN?

So here we are again. The powers that be want to dismantle the systems in place that are supposed to prevent this from happening AGAIN! They want to reduce an appraisal to a quickie one page report that takes less than one hour, with no inspection. Or, better yet, just do away with appraisals all together.

I too have a lot of experience in this business. I have had great clients that were as ethical as they come, and were a pleasure to work with. I have also had clients that asked me point blank to falsify reports to hit a number. It's a victimless crime right? They're going to make their payments to the bank - the bank makes a loan and makes a lot of money - and the appraiser makes money too.

You have been doing this much longer than I have, so I am sure you have seen this. We all know it exists. Thank goodness we have USPAP to guide us - and regulators to regulate - and all the other safeguards so this can't happen AGAIN, right? Follow the money. It will happen again, because everyone is in on it. And, for some unknown reason, whenever it does happen - and I think 3 times in 30 years is WAY TOO MUCH - nobody is held accountable. It's just write a check, talk a lot about it, and life goes on - rules to follow or not.

Just because you and I have never participated in it, doesn't mean it isn't there. Banks would LOVE to have their in house appraisers again. Those that don't "get along" would be out. Self regulating. What a concept! Maybe even better - have a separate ARM of the bank have their own staff appraisers to play the game. That way if and when they are "caught" the bank is held harmless and merely has to switch AMCs to continue business! Wow - can it get any better than that?

Here is an interesting thought (below) quoted from: https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-firrea-3305839

"Why did it take a literal Act of Congress to address this bank crisis? More than half the nation's Savings and Loans banks were failing. The Federal Savings and Loan Insurance Corporation had spent $20 billion to insure depositors of the failed banks. That bankrupted it. Without FIRREA, depositors in bankrupt S&Ls would have simply lost their money.

FIRREA also changed Savings and Loan regulations to help prevent further unsound investments and fraud."

Did that say to "HELP" prevent unsound investments and fraud? Not actually prevent it, just kind of help a little bit. Maybe. How nice. Well, that's exactly what it did - a little bit - but it sure didn't prevent any unsound investments or fraud at all did it? It sure did bring the country to it's knees for a very long time.

And you're advocating for banks to play fair if they are in charge with no oversight or separation of procedures? Are we willing to give them that much latitude? Not me.

rob a bank own one.JPG
 
So once again, appraisers are under the control of the interested party with a vested interest in making the loan work.

Yes, things are more complex, but this sure sounds like it has come full circle back to the beginning to me.

And the regulators and bank reviewers see nothing wrong with this situation. This is so funny and sickening at the same time. And not even seasoned appraisers HERE can see this cycle for what it is. How can we hope that anyone else could see it then?

We get what we deserve because we the people won't stand up for effective and honest leadership in this country, so everyone serves their own best interests. Period.

I should have taken this two levels deeper.

What we do now to run this country and prosper is not for our benefit. But for our grandchildren.

Chew on that thought before you stand up, wave the flag, and support your favorite politicians. Our grandchildren deserve so much better than what we have right now. Our forefathers did not build this great country with their sweat and blood only to have it run and controlled by the greedy ilk we have had in power for far too long. Or are we becoming so used to the scandals and distracting bickering that we are numb to seeing and doing what is actually important? Are our elections no longer a choice of who the best candidate is, but which ones we distrust and/or hate the least?

I was kinda hoping over the last few DECADES that things would be much better than they are now. Guess I'm too much of a dreamer - or maybe I have standards that I refuse to abandon or compromise. Hmmmmmm.
 
I know this is just a small snip of your total post #106 responding to another poster but it really stuck out to me JG ...

(my bold) Silly that appraisals would "never" be bid on ebay, etc??? They're basically already being bid. Actually, no I take that back, they are LITERALLY being bid on by some clients.

You yourself (and myself included) have commented on the bidding tactics of some AMCs and other lenders.

So whether we call it AMC or ebay or ... who cares?! Appraisals are already going out on bid(s) for lender work

Yes, dismally, some "client AMC's are bidding on appaisals. Which is still not ebay but...

The latter, what lenders do you know specifically that are asking for appraiser "bids" for residential regular/ non complex work?

If a lender orders appraisals direct under their own name, they are not allowed to "split" the fee with themselves, thus if they can't keep any fee overage, why are they fee bidding work out? Please e name them because I have not heard of it -yet, when it takes hold I'll have to quit.

Lenders now typically ask for an appraiser's fee when appraiser signs up to work for them or signs up for a portal, and they either them work at that fee or not. Or a bank/lender has a fee schedule for appraisers in an area and appraisers can accept or not. If a lender orders directly with their own name as client (no AMC), the work at that schedule ( c and r based ) or not.

If fee bidding does expand out of AMC work to direct lender work, the res lending field will cease to be able to offer a livng that can sustain even a modest lifestyle...why anyone would appraise for res lending then, or what speed/chruning do they need to do if the only way to get work is under bid each time out. What farcical ghost of a "profession" would remain?.....

It is common practice as we see for some AMC's troll for bids via email or calling...of course that depresses fees ever lower and does not seem to match C and R intent even for presumption 2.
 
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I'll put it this way - we can only see what has happened as a result of the decisions that our society - including our elected leaders - have made. By contrast it's hard to envision what would have been different had they made other decisions.

The could have chosen 40 years ago to not have an appraisal requirement at all. The could have chosen 30 years ago to include the SFR market along with the commercial market when they cut the outside MBs out of the appraisal engagement loop. They could have chosen to designate the American Institute of Real Estate Appraisers or the Society of Real Estate appraisers as the only orgs whose members are qualified to perform these appraisals. They could have run licensing on the national scale instead of ceding the responsiblity to the states. They could have skipped licensing altogether and left the designation path as the only mode of qualifications. They could have gone with no experience requirement at all - just education. They could have gone with a national VA model where there is no competition or variation in the fee; and everyone on the panel would thrive or starve equally depending on market conditions.

They could have done a lot of things differently, each combination leading to a different cumulative effect. In each of the scenarios there would have been winners and losers; people who would/could make that adaptation and people who wouldn't have or couldn't have. Just like now. And in each of these alternate universes we would have had people who were railing against the evolving market conditions as if their own interests mattered to anyone other than themselves.

On one of these alternate worlds it may be that either you or I or maybe both of us would have been unable to break into a Guild situation that was run by the AIREA or SREA to be the source of appraisal standards and qualifications. Or, if we did get in we might have had to serve a 10-yr apprenticeship working under a designated appraiser before being allowed in as a permanent member. The feds could have charged all the banks to employ staff appraisers, in which case we'd have been employees throughout our careers.

I'll leave it to you to decide whether you'd have had any interest in appraising if the prevailing form of the profession meant working as a salaried employee at a bank or fee shop rather than as an individual self-employed fee appraiser. I know that so long as I could get in - which maybe I wouldn't have been able to - I'd still be here because I've been there and I've done that and I was happy to do it because I like the work.

Different strokes. YMMV
 
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They could have...

Amazing to think about it isn't it?

I really don't care what the rules are. I just want them to be on a level playing field, and I will adapt; no problem at all.

However. When the entire country goes through a melt down. Twice. There is something wrong. And when the watch dogs of the business (appraisers) are being attacked from all sides, there is something dreadfully wrong.

Isn't this what happened in the 80's with the S&L crisis? Crisis. Has a certain tone to it, doesn't it? Great Recession doesn't sound quite so alarming. I wonder what the next melt down will be called? Market Correction? That has an even BETTER tone to it.

There is so much stench in the banking business - and HAS BEEN since the 80's - we might be better just starting over from scratch. This time either do it right, or let it run totally free, and we can all party day and night till we burn this country to the ground. Next time it may get to that. Nero fiddled while Rome burned, right? The expression has a double meaning: Not only did Nero play music while his people suffered, but he was an ineffectual leader in a time of crisis. I guess we never learn. Here we are back at the BEGINNING! Oh, I said that - that is the thread title - sorry, forgot.

The poor poor grandchildren. Wait till they find out how crooked and stupid we have been over the past FORTY some years. We've already robbed them of a one person income household, and taken away pensions. Now they're on their own to make it with two incomes, and save for themselves for retirement. What else can we take away to line the pockets of bankers and politicians? Oh hell yes - let's inflate housing so they all have to live with Mom and Dad till they have a solid career, somewhere around 30-40 years old. We've done that too. When it's time to retire, we all hope we can sock the young generation into paying $800,000 for a home we paid $40,000 for - then we can sit back and coast...

And, And. And. And you say you see why I'm unhappy George? It goes several levels deeper than that. Let's call things the way they are. There's a LOT of unhappiness to go around. But nice try to goad me into a shallow superficial argument. We've been there before. There is nothing simple, nor pleasant, about this. How about we call it, for a moment, our legacy from our generation that we leave behind? Is that something to be proud of? If we don't address it head on, we are not part of the solution: we are part of the problem. Justify and/or excuse it any way you want to - it is what it is.

I feel a book developing. Too many "fine citizens" of this country don't know, and don't care, about how we've been misled and lied to so many times. And things get worse and worse...
 
I hear you Rick.. any comments about appraising aside, you nailed it overall about the lack of ethics and sustainable policies in the sold to corporate grip USA and that the younger generation are inheriting a depleted nation of plundered resources, swollen debt and mainly low pay "gig economy" or service jobs,...add in they face dealing with climate change and habitat loss. Yes our greed and short signtedness in so many forms has robbed the future generation- if they resent or hate us I understand.
 
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