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Give me a break

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It seems to me that refusal to accept substandard appraisals would be a sure-fire risk management strategy. It is no secret that lenders and many AMCs target appraisers who's personal mission is to never miss the target value. I have heard realtors say they use an appraiser who hasn't missed the number in 27 years. I hear appraisers say they haven't missed the target in that long. I believe much of the use of incompetent and pliable appraisers would end immediately if Fannie and Freddie said, ok, reports done by those will be your inhouse loans as we won't buy them
That's much too direct and simple. You must remember, it is always preferable to appear as if you are doing something than actually accomplishing something. Once a problem is fixed and removed from the equation now what? Mission accomplished and everyone involved is no longer important.

Your thinking is mired in the real world, how dare you.
 
The reasons for a bad AVM vs a bad appraisal imo would be different. The AVM and the appraiser both have access to the same data. The appraiser qualifies the data, the AVM can not do that on a personal each one analyzed basis, but by a rote programming basis. And the rote part is the flaw...maybe in future years AI will replicate human experience and judgement but we are not there yet .For example, the fannie CU comps satisfy their rote within a mile within X % sf, but can range from good to mediocre to terrible comps due to various reasons.

If an appraisal is bad, other than a one off event, it is either the appraiser was not competent for the assignment or the appraiser set out to mislead/ inflate value - either way especially the second the clients should not be using that appraiser -

The other flaw with an AVM is the AVM concludes X $ value, is that a range or a point value with a confidence score around it ? Either way, who on the client or user end gets to choose the value from that AVM or whether to rely on it, order another one? idk but seems a murky area..

Well, I think there is some misunderstanding here.

I usually don't say much. Appraisers on this forum like to show how much statistics they know. But what they know is usually what is taught in basic statistics classes --- parametric statistics, normal curves, standard regression. In data mining nonparametric statistical tools like MARS, Random Forests, CART, LASSO or many other types are typically used. And they are used with:

Bootstrapping: A way of splitting your data set up into partitions, using maybe 80% for analysis to create a model and then the other 20% for testing. They draw data from the test partition with replacement to simulate a more general population and then test on the remaining. They may do this thousands of times, continually creating new partitions or test data sets from the original, then either selecting the best model, or combining them through an

Ensemble: Merging a number of differently created models to create a model that is more robust on predicting unknown or new data.

Bagging: Another term for splitting up your data set into partitions ... Go to YouTube for lots of videos.

The result of these techniques are data models that are robust even when created on rather small data sets.

About the only thing that matters on non-parameterized statistics is the R2 or the percentage of variance in the data that is accounted for by the model. Admittedly there are other specific measures created for specific techniques like logistic regression, but again these are not your typical statistics parameters. Anyway, the R2 or GCV-R2 is a "normalized" measure that makes it possible to compare models run against different data sets with different complexity models. For example we we make two runs against the same data set and one model uses 10 basis functions with N knots while another model gets by with 8 basis functions and N or fewer knots, and they both have the same standard R2, we would prefer the simpler model and that is where the GCV-R2 comes it, it will tive you a lower value for the more complex model. While MARS will also display things like MAPE or sum of errors - these are impossible to accurately compare between different sets of data or even different strategies in bagging and bootstrapping.

The GCV-R2 is an R2 that is adjusted for the effective number of parameters or the complexity of the model. In other words it penalizes for complexity that would for example indicate overfitting of the model to the data. It is usually the lowest in value of all R2 variants.

My guess is that Zillow in fact uses Salford Systems MARS or something very close. Furthermore, because they are so large they have a big advantage: Users, i.e. the public, will call them up or send emails if they see problems in the data. So, they get additional verification that appraisers don't get. I am also pretty sure they have people that constantly go over the data coming in to find and remove the most flawed property data.


Of course appraisers have a big advantage (now anyway) in that they are more familiar with the areas they work in than probably many of the people working at the companies that write software for and manage the AVMs.

And, the AVMs like Zillow are simply to big to be well managed, IMO.

Hard to say how things are going to play out in the end.
 
how dare you.

Don't you just love the "follow the science" crowd exploiting the arrogance of a 17 year old that knows it all? She doesn't know a tidbit of the science of the atmosphere and has zero credentials as a scientist. Yep is a guru of the climate. What a twit.
 
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If they are going to do all that , why not just order an appraisal?

The software companies offer AVM products at low cost because they DO NOT take liability for results of each one (why would they), nor do they, or any company offering them cheap, have a personal signature/on them ( if they did it would approach a desktop appraisal )

If you regulate these alt products with a signature and liability of a analyst or software engineer, might as well be an appraisal then.... lol.....AVM's "value " property so very differently than an appraisal does using SCA with the highly qualified but limited in number comps.... an AVM by contrast might run more comps but their qualification is rote and thus the comps in any AVM can range anywhere from good, to mediocre, to terrible - the problem is impossible to predict which .

The appraisal is the product that models a buyer and seller behavior. I have not heard of a buyer choosing a house from an alogrithm.... though one day it might happen lol. The AVM has its uses to check appraisals and , appraisals also can act as a check on AVMs - a reason a waiver ( which uses an AVM ) per fannie needs an appraisal on file for the property done within X years ? to qualify for the waiver..

AVMs don't use comps like appraisers do. AVM technology is not fixed, they keep improving it. So, they may run a regression for a neighborhood to develop a model and then apply that model to the best comparable sales closest to each property and make adjustments to the given property, which would be similar to what the appraiser does, except that they would likely have more robust models. The appraiser on the other hand, can take more time to look at the individual sales compa, take exact measurements of the subject and thus make a more detailed set of adjustments.

But, if the appraiser doesn't have the right adjustment for GLA and Lot Size, for example, all the other due diligence on inspection and analysis could very well be in vain. You need a good model, and then you need good subject and comparable information. And then you need to know how to put it together.

But everything keeps changing. Isn't that nice? Kind of. It gives the little guy an advantage compared to the corporation, if he is knowledgeable and creative. Well maybe anyway. Hard to say.
 
"Change is the only constant in life." Heraclitis

There is a lot of resistance to change and technology has been changing things for thousands of years. Research on things and what we have done in the past will change the way we do things in the future.

I have an analogy. My wife had a trauma patient that was technically a pediatric patient and my wife does not do peds. The teenager had problem X from a car accident so my wife went down to the peds unit and told the nurse that she wanted her to do X. The nurse let her know that she has been doing this for 40 years and they have always done Y.

My wife explained to her that Y has not been common for years, about a decade, and she wanted X. There was still much resistance for X from the nurse as everyone resists change.

=============================

Fannie and Freddie process millions of loans a year. When they have millions of loans a year and it is proven that for some loans an AVM provides the same risk or ever less risk than an appraisal then why order the $600 product when the $50 product serves their needs?

Appraisers don't have millions of data points for their analysis. Many appraisers say they use regression analysis when they don't know the first thing about it. Some loan products don't need a $600 solution when a $50 solution will suffice.

Another medical analogy. My wife had a resident come to her and he wanted to do X for a patient that was going to have surgery. My wife said instead of doing X why don't we do Y? The resident said that if he did Y then surgery would have to be delayed until the next day. My wife said that is true but X costs about $10,000 and Y only costs about $500 and the results will be the same and the guy doesn't need surgery today and tomorrow would be fine.

Again, the final results would be similar and the cost/benefit obviously favored Y by 20 times.

There ARE houses that are difficult to appraise, in fact downright scary. Sure, about any appraiser can look at a house, no matter what, look at other what appear to him to be similar homes, makes some dumb GLA and lot size adjustments at $X/sf and a few flying by the seat of the pants adjustments on quality, condition and view and probably get within 10%. Well, that is to say, if he at least closes his eye to a few perplexing problems. And that is the way it goes with a lot of appraisals done on difficult properties by appraisers who really can't solve the problems. But, it's not the end of the world.

Only. I remember back to 1995 when my wife and I went to refinance and were about to get a loan from Ameriquest. Fortunately I read the fine print before signing and interestingly the wording and stipulations were completely different from what the loan officer had explained to us. He was rather perturbed that I had the audacity to read the fine print. He went back to some guy in a back room who I could hear only faintly. Apparently he directed him to come back to us and try to sidestep all the issues and talk us into signing. It was high pressure selling. It didn't work with me. But, the thing is, that this sort of stuff can always spring back, and you know if they can find appraisers to do their bidding, it will all happen again. And surprise, surprise, if they could pull strings to get an AVM to do their bidding that would be a dream come true for such people.
 
I will grant you there was an assumption on my part. But that assumption is based on the fact that some of the poorest appraisals I have seen, in my market, and which should have resulted in losses of licenses, are by appraisers 40+ years in. It may well be that efforts are being made, but how can they be serious? I will also grant that State Boards should be enforcing standards, yet a growing number are manned by the least ethical appraisers in the state, to ensure the bar is so low even they can remain in place screwing the public. But I'm not arguing that Fannie and Freddie should be enforcing USPAP or state regulations. It seems to me that refusal to accept substandard appraisals would be a sure-fire risk management strategy. It is no secret that lenders and many AMCs target appraisers who's personal mission is to never miss the target value. I have heard realtors say they use an appraiser who hasn't missed the number in 27 years. I hear appraisers say they haven't missed the target in that long. I believe much of the use of incompetent and pliable appraisers would end immediately if Fannie and Freddie said, ok, reports done by those will be your inhouse loans as we won't buy them. But until there is a price to be paid, the garbage being sent to you will not smell any better. Also, as long as the entire effort is done from DC, there is little chance of catching those who are skilled at misleading the reader...that is far more problematic than outright incompetence.
The system today actually works similar to that. If the appraisal report is “less than ideal” the lender is not granted rep and warrant relief. That means that if the loan goes south, the lender gets to repurchase that loan. Not a small thing

As I noted (and you agreed), enforcement is primarily a state issue. The problem is that the states are all over the board. I have personally seen both ends of the spectrum, especially during my AMC days.

In one case, an appraiser admitted (in front of several witnesses) that he was sending runners out and not doing the inspections himself and then certifying that he had inspected. When we sent the evidence to the state. They did nothing - explaining to us that the person who handled those kinds of cases had retired. I kid you not

In another case we had an appraiser get his certification suspended for three months which the sole citation being that he did not put his prior service disclosure in the report. The client was well aware that he had appraised the subject before - that is why they called him. And it was noted in the LOE He just forgot to put it in the report. 3 months out of work for that. Insane.

I certainly don’t have all the answers. And, the pandemic last year meant that we had to pivot and focus on some other things, but improved AQM is something we are working on. But it does remind me a little bit of the mandatory reporting laws that some lobbied for with AMCs. Many were for it, until they got turned in.
 
The system today actually works similar to that. If the appraisal report is “less than ideal” the lender is not granted rep and warrant relief. That means that if the loan goes south, the lender gets to repurchase that loan. Not a small thing

Big picture pretty inconsequential due that risk being quite low. Also pretty ineffective based on what appraisers see as an ongoing issue with these appraisers.

If F&F with all their billions of data points are unable to ferret out the bad suppliers of appraisals well....something ain't right. Seems they can identify if an appraiser's C&Q ratings differ from the pack but can't identify who is sending deficient reports. :shrug: Maybe they aren't really that interested after all.
 
Big picture pretty inconsequential due that risk being quite low. Also pretty ineffective based on what appraisers see as an ongoing issue with these appraisers.

If F&F with all their billions of data points are unable to ferret out the bad suppliers of appraisals well....something ain't right. Seems they can identify if an appraiser's C&Q ratings differ from the pack but can't identify who is sending deficient reports. :shrug: Maybe they aren't really that interested after all.
You might be right. Or it could be that you have no idea what we actually do with regard to AQM and are spiff balling. :).

Do you really think I am going to get on a public forum and spill the details of our investigative methods, giving bad actors insight on strategies to avoid detection?
 
You might be right. Or it could be that you have no idea what we actually do with regard to AQM and are spiff balling. :).

Do you really think I am going to get on a public forum and spill the details of our investigative methods, giving bad actors insight on strategies to avoid detection?

Not asking for anybody's secret recipe at all.

The proof they say is in the pudding and the taste of the pudding ain't changed.

From 7 years ago this month-

Happy Anniversary
 
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