2nd illegal kitchen

[Webbed Feet]

Just got off the phone with a planning dude. He said that this is NOT a companion unit or any other type of "unit" because it is accessible from the primary unit via doors from the kitchen and the main downstairs hallway. He said in order to be considered a "unit" of any kind it can be attached, but must not be accessible from the primary unit - only from the exterior. So basically, this is a SFR with an illegal kitchen. He said even if they closed off the doors with full walls, they wouldn't get a permit because of the requirement of double the min. lot size, which they don't have. So, the homeowner is screwed unless they take out the kitchen.

So I can go forward and complete the appraisal subject to removal of the kitchen, which I'm sure my client will not want to do, or as-is with a cost to cure for removal of the kitchen (and since I'm not a contractor how the heck would I know?) Either way, I think the my client has a dead deal.

Here's a funny question - if this property does not technically have a second unit because of the interior access from the primary unit, then does it violate the SFR-1 zoning compliance? Answer - I guess not, since it is now simply defined as a SFR with a second illegal kitchen! Ugh! I still have a headache! But, I must say this has been very educational. Thanks to all for your help!

How did you come up with confusing a zoning violation with a building code violation like that? For the correct answer, you ask the very same person in the planning department if it represents a zoning violation, a building code violation, or both.

As-Is with CTC: If this is a GSE / Fannie related assignment, Fannie will accept certain types of illegalities as long as the appraiser can find at least three other sales of similar properties with similar illegalties to "prove" the illegalities are market acceptable. There lies the problem. In my market area, I cannot obtain three other "recent" and "similar" sales with "similar" illegalties ever in the past. I'm not going to predict the future on that one. But any such assignment, in my location, immediately becomes complex and expensive due to the extensive research required. I've never found anyone wanting to pay me for what it would take, and keep in mind I demand they pay me regardless of what I find or don't find. I, for one, will not spend days of my time for free on their need for a wild goose chase.

The second kitchen doesn't have to be removed. If you call you planning department person, I am sure you will find out it must be "decommissioned,' and they will tell you exactly what that involves if you ask. That said, I prefer an HC it has been "decommissioned per the local J.A. with an inspection by the local J.A. for same." As I don't care to be asked to be the expert regarding what "decommissioning" means.

Again, you have a SOW renegociation situation with your client. You should call the planning department again so you are ready for that.

 

[residentialguy]

Ugh!!!!!!


Ok, one last time. Before the next other twenty million last times on this forum... Who "gives" value to what in real estate appraising? Is it real estate appraisers who "give" value, or is it the market that "gives" value?

You get one attempt at answering this correctly. Then we send out the hell hounds to chase you down and get rid of you if you don't know this one.

LOL...you know what I meant.

 

[nstanbru]

Just curious how some of you are able to verify issues of legal vs grandfathered vs non-conforming, etc. In the two counties that I work in I will usually call the zoning department and I will be tossed around like a pinball from one incompetent operator to another, after about the fifth or sixth they will tell me I have to call anoter number.

Most of the time I get that info by reading the relevant sections of the city municipal code.

 

[The Warrior Monk]

By knowing and understanding the laws of the land almost as well as the planning department.

Ditto.

So I can go forward and complete the appraisal subject to removal of the kitchen, which I'm sure my client will not want to do, or as-is with a cost to cure for removal of the kitchen (and since I'm not a contractor how the heck would I know?) Either way, I think the my client has a dead deal.

Whether or not the deal is dead is of no concern to the appraiser. But the client has to be contacted to determine how to proceed with the assignment.

 

[Mr Rex]

Whether or not the deal is dead is of no concern to the appraiser. But the client has to be contacted to determine how to proceed with the assignment.

I suggest as an appraiser, you provide the client a report of your findings.:icon_idea:

 

[Mike Kennedy]

Ditto Rex.

 

[Pete Humphrey]

Well, yet another interesting chat with a dude at Devmt Svcs. (They are starting to know me there!) He says the guy I talked to yesterday is WRONG. A second kitchen makes this a second unit regardless of whether there are doors for access from the main part of the home or not. Fortunately, I asked the name of the guy yesterday since this didn't ring right with me when he couldn't actually point to it the code. I reported his name to the man I spoke to today (who seemed to know his stuff!) so hopefully they will set the guy straight.

As far as Webbed Feet's comments (which prompted my call - thx WF!) this is considered a zoning violation and not necessarily a building violation since this would involve structural changes to the building, which there really aren't (considering the stove is actually electric not gas, no gas piping or anything like that). The Dev. Svcs. specialist said he has never heard of "decommissiong" a second kitchen, only removing it which per the municipal code def. of a kitchen would involve removal of anything related to food prep, or anything that a inspector would look at as a food prep area. He said leaving the sink would probably be okay, since many homes have wet bars, utility sinks etc. I also asked him why a second kitchen is such a big deal and he said it's because in SF1 zones they do not want people sectioning off portions of their houses, adding kitchens and then adding tenants. I admit, I wouldn't want to live next door to someone like this! (side note: I once appraised a house where they only had one kitchen, but bedrooms in every nook and cranny - even the closets and kitchen pantry. There must have been 20 people living in this 4 bedroom home! I also appraised a SFR with one kitchen, one bed and one bath where they had 5 little sheds in the rear yard with beds in them! Hey this is San Diego, you can guess who was sleeping in there! So I'd say, a kitchen does not necessarily define a rental unit.)

Bottomline, I explained all of this to the client and they are attempting to get the owner to take out everything except the kitchen sink and then I will go back and take new photos. Of course I will be charging my standard $100 trip fee! With all this extra research they are getting off easy!!!!

Again, thx for all your help folks! PH

 

[Webbed Feet]

LOL...you know what I meant.

LOL back at you.. ... but did all other appraisers that read these threads know what you meant? I think I can say fairly certainly that myself and many other regulars here know for a fact that many of them would not have.

 

[Webbed Feet]

Mr. Humphrey,

I have to congratulate and commend you! .. What you just did is something far, far, too many appraisers don't do. It's called performing your due diligence !!! Better, you just learned an invaluable lesson you will hang onto forevermore. One we forgot to warn you about, but is what was behind post #54 of Bother Boyd and Brother Wimpelberg I suspect. It was don't trust the first persons answers to the point you fail to read the involved code yourself to see if the answers and the code (building or zoning) gel together. If they don't, question it! ... I can't begin to recall the number of times it took several trys at getting answers before the correct answers were provided. It may sound like alot of work and profit killing research, but I suspect I still have my license/certification today because I was willing to visit planning departments personally and insisted the staff read over with me, and provide me with, the written codes they were referring to.

By the way, I would bet research would prove your 1 kitchen / 20 people case was an illegal boarding house per the zoning.

I sure hope a great many appraisers read this thread. Because your posting of your journey, and the results, very much show what it takes to be a true real estate appraiser versus just somebody with the license / certification ... but not the gumption to obtain the experience to be any more than just that.

 

[residentialguy]

LOL back at you.. ... but did all other appraisers that read these threads know what you meant? I think I can say fairly certainly that myself and many other regulars here know for a fact that many of them would not have.

I think you are being overly dramatic on the whole thing. I don't know that there are many appraisers out there that don't know that.

And furthermore, to say the appraiser is going to give or take value is valid. The appraiser does give or takes away value (by adjusting comps) on the appraisal. Obviously, the adjustment the appraiser gives is based upon market reaction.