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A question of GLA on a Cape

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Would I get all the stair treads included in the GLA since the ceiling is more than 5 feet tall for all of them? Would I get the over 5' ceiling portion of the landing in between the floors included in the GLA?
Or not?
 
If the rear of the property has the same "roof line" but is not "lofted" than it would depend on the length that is lofted.

If the house is 40 by 30 feet (for argument sake) and 10 feet of the length is lofted as it shows there than my maths for GLA would be:

40 x 30 = 1200 (first floor)
40 x 20 x .5 = 400 (second floor not lofted)
40 x 10 x .35+- = 140 (second floor lofted)
Total GLA: 1740+-

An appraiser could use .3 or .4 for the lofted area and not be wrong as well.
 
I would measure the actual floor area of the second floor and the stairs would not be part of that as they are really part of the open area to below. We're not splitting hairs over the difference the few square feet that counting the stairs on both levels would cause, are we?
 
I would measure the actual floor area of the second floor and the stairs would not be part of that as they are really part of the open area to below. We're not splitting hairs over the difference the few square feet that counting the stairs on both levels would cause, are we?
That's not right, most of the time. ANSI and all that, you know?
 
Would I get all the stair treads included in the GLA since the ceiling is more than 5 feet tall for all of them? Would I get the over 5' ceiling portion of the landing in between the floors included in the GLA?
Or not?

Yes
No
Maybe

I suspect you do not know, or are forgetting, that Market Value is an opinion, and so is the estimate of GLA on any specific house.
 
Well, perhaps it is "splitting hairs", but the hair splitting has changed the GLA of my house from a high of 1748 sqft in 2009 to a recent low of 1614 sqft in 2012 with no modifications to the size of the house.

That's one awfully big hair. At $35/sqft it's $4690, ($35/sqft was the figure used on the latest appraisal when dealing with the comps).

Now I don't think the most recent appraisal was done in the most professional manner and there is apparently no mechanism for complaint other than to run to the licensing board and say his opinion stinks. Like that's going to do anything.

I would like to know the "right" way to measure this house so I can educate the next appraiser on how to correctly form his opinion and back up my "opinion" with concrete reasons for that opinion. I shouldn't have to do this as a homeowner but given my experiences so far I feel this is the only way to defend myself from "less than informed" opinions by licensed but woefully undereducated or inexperienced persons who show up at my door.

The only reason I care about the opinion is that it affects the value which the lenders translate into REAL yes or no answers on a loan. Because of an opinion, my lender will either sink this loan or charge me hundreds of dollars in PMI a month.

And if that opinion is crap, I as a homeowner get absolutely NO RECOURSE other than to fill out a strongly worded complaint complete with comps, so someone in a state office can say, "aww, ain't that cute". If the appraiser gets a bunch more of these he might get a talking to. OOHHHHHHH.

Meanwhile I'm out $495 for running across someone who can't be bothered to measure a house in a semi coherent fashion to form his GLA opinion, and picks comps on the same street so he doesn't have to drive 5 miles to take a picture of a more appropriate comp (Screw the homeowner, gas costs money). THANKS STREETLINKS.

I'm open to suggestions on what to tell my state representative on how to fix this problem. Better licensing? Outlaw appraisal aggregation mills or AMC's? Create a dispute mechanism? Get rid of the appraisal requirement for a no money out refi? Got a suggestion? Let me hear your ideas.
 
Unfortunately, the valid viewpoint here (value) is appraisers, not consumers.

Well, perhaps it is "splitting hairs", but the hair splitting has changed the GLA of my house from a high of 1748 sqft in 2009 to a recent low of 1614 sqft in 2012 with no modifications to the size of the house.

That's one awfully big hair. At $35/sqft it's $4690, ($35/sqft was the figure used on the latest appraisal when dealing with the comps).

Lay people "consumers" always wish to take all arguments regarding value outcomes to micro-managed debates over specific "quantified" (specific measured items times dollar amounts) things that work in their favor. Sure, saying or writing ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY FOUR SQUARE FEET sounds quite dramatic. However, considering what amounts to a 10' by 13.4' area that was really the result of a difference from measuring an entire house with rounding error thrown in..... not so dramatic. Send out five different appraisers, one gets five different measurement estimates the majority of the time.

What the public doesn't want to admit, whenever they don't get a value outcome that they wanted, is the public itself does not personally measure every square foot of house when they go house shopping. In fact, they don't do it before buying either. They go to homes of general size ranges and walk through them to get a feel of the overall utility of the floor plan layout. Location, site utility, floor plan utility, condition, and overall design appeal is where it is all at for the buying public, not specific square footage amounts. This last item of consideration generally only becomes a concern when people are wanting a specific value number hit in order to obtain some personal goal. I.E. a loan.


Now I don't think the most recent appraisal was done in the most professional manner and there is apparently no mechanism for complaint other than to run to the licensing board and say his opinion stinks. Like that's going to do anything.

That doesn't do anything because to be successful with a state appraisal board one does not complain about the "opinion." What one complains about is the methodology. In appraiser lingo that is called "development." If the opinion arrived at cannot be comprehended by reading the report, then the issue in our lingo is called "reporting."

In any public consumer's favor, well over 50% of appraisers cannot create comprehensible reports even if their licenses and certifications depend on it, which they do. That said however, in defense of my trade, the recent demands by Fannie and other large GSEs that require all of this "Q2" and "C4" nonsense has done nothing more than empower more appraisers to produce more, for the public, incomprehensible reports with an excuse for having done so.

I would like to know the "right" way to measure this house so I can educate the next appraiser on how to correctly form his opinion and back up my "opinion" with concrete reasons for that opinion. I shouldn't have to do this as a homeowner but given my experiences so far I feel this is the only way to defend myself from "less than informed" opinions by licensed but woefully undereducated or inexperienced persons who show up at my door.

LOL! Wow, really bad plan. I appreciate the rant very highly however, I want you to know that. The type of appraiser you describe above will smile at you and then go do what it was they were going to do anyway. The appraisers you want to come to your door will either do the same exact thing or hand you your head on a platter for trying to "educate" them. Some of this latter group may even call your lender and withdraw from the assignment because you attempted in influence their opinion of value to that degree.

The only reason I care about the opinion is that it affects the value which the lenders translate into REAL yes or no answers on a loan. Because of an opinion, my lender will either sink this loan or charge me hundreds of dollars in PMI a month.

We know this. Really, you have to consider the crowd your posting to. This is all we hear about during our entire careers as appraisers. Seriously, we know what you all care about, and it is not our opinions or our reports.

And if that opinion is crap, I as a homeowner get absolutely NO RECOURSE other than to fill out a strongly worded complaint complete with comps, so someone in a state office can say, "aww, ain't that cute". If the appraiser gets a bunch more of these he might get a talking to. OOHHHHHHH.

See above. Yes, we know. Every borrower that ends up having to pay PMI, or not getting a loan due to an appraisal outcome, it was due to a "crap" opinion. We are used to everyone having an opinion about our opinions.

Meanwhile I'm out $495 for running across someone who can't be bothered to measure a house in a semi coherent fashion to form his GLA opinion, and picks comps on the same street so he doesn't have to drive 5 miles to take a picture of a more appropriate comp (Screw the homeowner, gas costs money). THANKS STREETLINKS.

Remember I mentioned "Location" first in a list above? You're not going to win by attempting to convince lenders or appraisers that going greater distances results in more credible value indicators. During the "Boom" a great deal of those appraisers you describe above did just that in order to hit the right numbers so loans would happen for their mortgage broker clients. Today many of those appraisers are getting, or going to get, sued due to it. And sued by the very same entities that looked the other way while it was being done because they wanted their loan pipelines kept full.

I'm open to suggestions on what to tell my state representative on how to fix this problem. Better licensing? Outlaw appraisal aggregation mills or AMC's? Create a dispute mechanism? Get rid of the appraisal requirement for a no money out refi? Got a suggestion? Let me hear your ideas.

I am afraid my ideas are too idealistic for the world you and I live in. As long as Americans keep wanting instant gratification in all ways with everything, and expect someone else to take care of them, nothing will change but rather just get worse. In fact, it won't be long and you'll not be dealing with any appraiser's opinion at all. It will be the result a machine came up with based upon assessors measurements in most cases. And because in most areas assessors rarely see the majority of properties, people often demand assessors leave their properties and not allow them to measure anything, I'll not opine on how "accurate" those machines are going to be. Imagine it for yourself.

Why is this all happening? It is happening because Americans are addicted to fast and cheap. The "good" appraisers you want all know a saying we have. "You can have fast, you can have cheap, and you can have accurate. What you can't have is all three at the same time, pick two." In reality we actually mean "less expensive" and "credible," but the world insists on foolishly thinking that opinions can somehow be "accurate." This foolishness extends right up to Fannie Mae as well. But that's another story.

So what is happening? The public wants it fast. The lenders want it both fast and cheap. The lenders want it fast so borrowers will not get buyers remorse, change their minds or find a different lender. They want it fast due to loan locks (they have to set that money aside during that time period) and other profit considerations, and to keep stock holders happy.

Lenders want it cheap because many of them have discovered, to their delight, that the public is so uninformed that the lenders can hire the cheapest appraisers they can find, charge the public double or more than what the appraiser is paid, and make a very nice profit off of all you uninformed borrowers. A nice profit even if no loan is consummated.

At the same time real estate markets have become vastly more complicated than ever before during the entire careers of almost all appraisers working today. If not more complicated than ever before in the history of this country.

Tell your representative this trade needs either or both of more time and higher pay. The last one means lenders and AMCs cannot be skimming off huge percentages of what borrowers are being charged for real estate appraisals for themselves. The solutions really are not complex. What is complex is real estate appraising, and demanding getting it for fast and cheap is what has driven a great deal of the appraisers that YOU want coming to your home right out the business.

Fast, Competitively Priced, Credible Results.

Pick Two. Cheap just doesn't work, but that's my opinion.
 
I would measure the actual floor area of the second floor and the stairs would not be part of that as they are really part of the open area to below. We're not splitting hairs over the difference the few square feet that counting the stairs on both levels would cause, are we?

Agree Paul, and based on the photo supplied, what I can see that I would include as 2nd floor GLA is from the railing going to the right.
 
Unless you are getting out of your car to measure your comparables, consistency is key. As you say, this is how the Assessor does it...
There's your answer. Think about how GLA affects value - it's not that there is some universal dollar per square foot factor that can be applied to all residential properties; GLA is used to compare your property with other properties that have sold recently. Use a different measuring standard, regardless of which standard is "correct", on either the subject or the comparable sales and the comparison becomes meaningless.

The most important question isn't how to accurately measure your house, it's how to accurately compare your house with recent sales. The first step is to identify the most important value determinants in your market area. Often, GLA affects buying decisions more directly than any other property characteristic but it's not uncommon to find neighborhoods where GLA is the least important value determinant, overshadowed by e.g. location, view, setting, construction quality, general appeal, etc. Just to emphasize the point, when you bought your house, I doubt if you said, "Tell me the exact size of the property and I'll be able to tell you exactly how much I'm willing to pay."
 
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