Abandoned Oil tank

[Formula Fan]

Well I got ahold of FHA in Atlanta and Curt said its not an FHA issue, but a state issue. So I called the State and the only requirement is the tank to be empty and the fill and vent pipe removed. The tank does not need to be filled with anything.

I will be stating in the report the requirement for having properly certified personel do the work as noted above.

Thanks for all the replies.

 

[AJL118]

Reasonable Response

RSW - Sensible response. If a company is willing to certify and has the balance sheet and longivity to back it, go for it if you want. Companies disappear quickly. However, if I was a buyer party to the transaction, the existence of this underground tank and "certification" that it has been emptied had better be certified by the existence of a callable bond. Certifications are hollow if backed up by hollow companies. Hey, I'm a cynic. Reagan said "Trust but verify."

 

[Dave Fitch]

Glad you called FHA and the state. There are no requirements in the State of Indiana pertaining to the removal of any abandoned underground oil tanks of 1,000 gallon size or smaller. I was in the fuel oil business, and tank removal business a number of years ago. Most residential tanks are 275, 290 or 550 gallons in size. Rarely, if ever does a dwelling have a 1,000 gallon size tank, (these are more for commercial or industrial useage). But, even if a homeowner did have a 1,000 gallon tank, it would still not be necessary, (only OVER 1,000 gallons in size). So many individuals get concerned about these tanks, they are plentiful, and everywhere, but the reality is, they are not that much of an issue. Removal consists of pumping-out any product, digging the tank up, removing it, and filling the hole in with dirt. Commercial removal companies can charge $700, $800, $1,200, or whatever the market will bear. An individual could do it themselves with a backhoe for practically nothing. No guidelines are required for removal, however, any oil spillage should be removed. Usually, any fuel oil leakage is quite confined to the immediate area, (of only a few inches). Oil is lighter than water, 7.2 lbs. per gallon as compared to 8 lbs. for water, (that is why it floats on top of mud puddles), and because of this, either stays there or goes UPWARD, NOT DOWNWARD, towards the ground water.

 

[Don Clark]

That's why I would condition for a phase I or phase II environmental inspection. The lender would want to know as well as they could be held liable for clean up of the site if found to be contaminated.

A phae I(visual inspection) would tell you what you already know. There is an underground oil tank. Cost about $2-3,000.

A phase II would be a scientific study. It would tell you whether or not there is oil in the tank. Cost about $5-10,000

What you can do is have a local company that services such tanks come out and see if the tank is still there. They also have devices that can tell you if it has been filled with something other than oil. Or, they can remove it. Likely will cost, under all circumstances, less than $1,000

For the record, I was on the E-50 environmental committee of the ASTM that wrote the standards for the Phase I and the Phase II. I have taught environmental courses for over 10 years, and have taught the standard of practice for the Phase I.

I would not recommend either one for a residential inground oil tank.

 

[RSW]

A phae I(visual inspection) would tell you what you already know. There is an underground oil tank. Cost about $2-3,000.

A phase II would be a scientific study. It would tell you whether or not there is oil in the tank. Cost about $5-10,000

What you can do is have a local company that services such tanks come out and see if the tank is still there. They also have devices that can tell you if it has been filled with something other than oil. Or, they can remove it. Likely will cost, under all circumstances, less than $1,000

For the record, I was on the E-50 environmental committee of the ASTM that wrote the standards for the Phase I and the Phase II. I have taught environmental courses for over 10 years, and have taught the standard of practice for the Phase I.

I would not recommend either one for a residential inground oil tank.

I have taken classes on environmental issues and I have one of the drafts of the standards that was written in the early 1990's of the standards. From what I understand, a phase I or phase II is only seperated by the SOW involved. I would not want to put myself on the hook when I know there may be a possibility of a leaking underground storage tank. I would still call for the inspection. You can do it as you want to and I would do it as I feel I need to.

 

[Mr Rex]

FWIW, the way I read FHA, only if there is surface evidence of a leak is an inspection required. As always in the case of something that may be a hidden hazard but doesn't automatically rise to the level of non compliance with MPR, point it out in your comments and let the DEU make the call.

 

[Don Clark]

I have taken classes on environmental issues and I have one of the drafts of the standards that was written in the early 1990's of the standards. From what I understand, a phase I or phase II is only seperated by the SOW involved. I would not want to put myself on the hook when I know there may be a possibility of a leaking underground storage tank. I would still call for the inspection. You can do it as you want to and I would do it as I feel I need to.

And, I have written courses on environmental hazards and conditions. Residential storage tanks are not included in environmental site assessments. A phase I is a visual inspection of a site with a survey of available documents. A Phase II is the phase that requires testing, sampling, and a scientific study of the site. That can only be done by qualified scientist. No lender will ever require either a Phase I or a Phase II for a residential property. both the Phase I and the Phase II standards were written for commercial properties. There is another standard for what is called a "Transaction Screen". that is a site inspection and a asking a series of questions. A Phase I has to be done by an envirnomental professional such as an environmental engineer. A Phase II has to be done by individuals who scientific capabilities and are envirnmental scientist. I have had every level in my classes from appraisers to those with Phd's in scientific fields of study.

A local company that has the capability of inspecting an underground residential oil tank would be capable of doing the inspection.

 

[RSW]

I respect your level of knowledge and experience. Do you mean to say that a leaking residential storage tank is not considered to be a potential environmental hazard?

I think that Rex has it correct about surface evidence of a leak. But, what if there is a leak somewhere near to bottom of the tank and there is no evidence of a leak on the surface. Pipes leading to the dwelling and adjacent dwellings may be contaminated.

 

[Don Clark]

I respect your level of knowledge and experience. Do you mean to say that a leaking residential storage tank is not considered to be a potential environmental hazard?

I think that Rex has it correct about surface evidence of a leak. But, what if there is a leak somewhere near to bottom of the tank and there is no evidence of a leak on the surface. Pipes leading to the dwelling and adjacent dwellings may be contaminated.

I did not say that at all. What I said is that a Phase I and a Phase II environmental site assessment were not written for residential properties. The only way to determine if the residential underground storage tank is leaking is to have it removed. Filling it with sand or some other material will mitigate the potential for or actual leaking, but may not solve the problem. Every community has their own requirements for closing or removal of residential underground storgage tanks. I would suggest closing it in accordance with local requirements. It is very unlikely that a small residential UST will have enough volume for a leak for it to rise to the surface, but it could happen. That is why most community's would likely require that all liquid be removed from the tank prior to filling the tank with sand or some other material. There is generally not enough liquid in a residential tank to cause an environmental issue except on the subject site. Unlike the huge tanks that services stations have, that require double tanks, surface gauges to identify potential problems, and routine inspections, the residential tanks are governed only by local ordinance.

In my case, all I asked the seller to do was to have a local company come out and see if the tank had been closed since there was no evidence that it had except the statement of a former owner. That could be done very less than $500.00 If the city, in this case, did not require removal, then that same company could simply remove the fill pipe and vent pipes if the tank was already closed.

 

[RSW]

Fair enough!