Above Grade & Below Grade Areas

[Steve Owen]

I am not suggesting that ANSI should be completely ignored. I have read it over and I try to follow most of what it says. But I am suggesting that for the typical appraisal, rounding to the nearest foot is the smart thing to do. IMHO, those who think:

QUOTE
if you use ANSI you must use all of it - you cannot pick and choose which of the measurement standards to follow

are doing it wrong

You don't have to use ANSI; if you want to be different, go ahead. This is THE standard for measuring residential properties and should be used by builders, realtors, appraisers and everyone else. Unfortunately, not everyone is on board.

If your client requires you to use it, then you should, IMHO. If your client does not require it and you don't want to use it then you might risk having to explain why your rounding left you with a 200 sqft. smaller (or larger) house than I measured using the standard. One thing that you cannot do, is that you may not say you used the ANSI standards in your report if you did not do so. That would be mis-leading and would be a USPAP violation.

One of the requirements for use of ANSI, is that if you say you are measuring a house according to ANSI standards, then you must use the ENTIRE set of standards and may not pick and choose which standards you will follow. Therefore, it is you, my friend, who is doing it wrong if you state that you measured the house according to ANSI.

Jo Ann, I understood your comments and don't have any disagreement with them.

 

[Steve Owen]

My contention is that reporting it one way on page one and in the cost approach and then doing something different in the grid could be mis-leading.

You are correct.

 

[Phil Rice]

my statement:

If the value is right and proper disclosures are made, the appraisal report is not misleading.

I disclose in my scope statement that I round measurements to the nearest foot. I have never had a complaint.

I agree that it would be wrong to claim to use ANSI, and then not do so. By show of hands, how many put in their reports that they adhear to ANSI? I have never seen such a statement in any appraisal report.

I advocate proper disclosure, and a good scope statement is an important (required) part of proper disclosure.

My opinion, the appraisal process, and therefore, the report, should be in line with buyers and sellers in your market. If "everyone" (realtors, assessor, buyers, sellers, etc) blindly follows ALL of ANSI, then you should too. I am not saying it is wrong to follow ANSI, per se.

However, I am saying that in my opinion, there is a limited amount of time to spend on any one appraisal assignment, sweating every inch on every measurement is not the best use of your time. Save 10 minutes on the measurement/sketch, and spend that time doing a better job of selecting comps (or writing a better scope stmt for the report).

your rounding left you with a 200 sqft. smaller (or larger) house than I measured

is a blatant exaggeration. But more to the point, Raimo summed it up:

I round to the nearest 3 inches. My sketch is more accurate than yours.
My final value opinion is not any more accurate than yours.
It's the value that counts.

If everyone in your market says ZIG, and you say ZAG, you are not making the best use of your time. Your scope of work should be disclosed, and it should make sense in the circumstances. Sometimes, this involves judgment. There is not one "right" answer that applies to everyone.

 

[Steve Owen]

Most of what you say is probably valid, Phil. the most important thing is accruate and credible value. But...

By show of hands, how many put in their reports that they adhear to ANSI?

Where's that raised hand emoticon?

I do.

Extra time? You have to walk all the way around the house anyway. What's the diff? It does not take me one second longer to measure to the nearest inch. In fact, I used to round to the nearest three inches - it is quicker to measure to the nearest inch because you don't have to make a decision at every corner.

QUOTE
your rounding left you with a 200 sqft. smaller (or larger) house than I measured

is a blatant exaggeration. But more to the point,

Is it? Here is a real example from a recent court case. My measurement: 1,852 above grade, 1,100 below. The other appraiser's measurement: 1,700 above, 1,000 below. His opinion of value was $40,000 or so less than mine. Still think you are being as accurate as possible with your value when you round to the nearest foot?

Attorney for my client:

"How did you determine the size of the house?"

You can guess where it went from there. the attorney determined that I used ANSI to measure the house, which was commented on in the appraisal report. The other appraiser didn't act like he even knew what ANSI was, but the judge did. To be fair, not all the difference was in how he rounded the measurements - he also apparently did not handle the stairs correctly.

Point is, there is only one standard, if you don't use it, then what are you using? Is what you are using consistent with what your peers do? Rounding used to be common, but I think it is not so common among appraisers now - even some of our realtors use ANSI when they measure now, to help avoid lawsuits.

Suit yourself, but if I've got a nationwide, recognized standard, I'm going to use it.

 

[Phil Rice]

even some of our realtors use ANSI when they measure

gets my attention. When I was in Massachusetts, I know that the real estate agents never measured a house. Here in Denver, there are 1,000's of homes for sale, and I would be surprised if anyone could find even one house where the listing agent measured the house.

it is quicker to measure to the nearest inch because you don't have to make a decision at every corner

is just silly. You always round to something - and there is always a decision to make when you come in at 1/2 unit (inch or foot), round up or down?

If you have a statement about using ANSI in your reports, I admire that and say - good job. Have you ever seen another appraiser make that stmt in a report? As I said, I have never seen it.

I use a tape when I measure, and I take pride in the accuracy of my finished product. I am capable of making a mistake just like anyone else, but if push came to shove, I would stack my sketch against anyone. Here are some issues that I have faced that made me think that rounding to the nearest foot is the smart thing to do:

1) I start at one corner of the house, use grid paper, and measure every wall. When I get to the last measurement, it needs to match up with the starting point. If not, I go back and check. Does not make sense to me to start over to find the missing 2 inches. If you claim that rounding to the inch is faster than rounding to the foot, this has zero credibility with me.

2) As likely as not, the house is 1 inch (or more) out of square. Measure a house built in the 1800's in Salem Massachusetts, and you are lucky if the house is only a few inches out of square.

3) 2nd floor - measure from the ground or from the inside - either way, no way am I accurate to the inch. Maybe a disto would solve this problem, but in my opinion, claiming to be accurate to the inch is not credible.

4) Often, the exterior siding will measure an inch or 2 different at knee level (brick) than at eye level (vinyl). Or the back siding is different than the front siding, etc etc etc

5) Sometimes bushes, junk, etc, make it impractical to get a really good measurement on parts of the house.

6) When pulling a tape for a long measurement, the slack in the tape or the gutter downspout (etc) can easily throw off the accuracy by 2 or 3 inches. I try to account for all of these things, but in the end, I choose not to sweat the small stuff because I know it will not affect the value of the house. Buyers and sellers do not make decisions based on 34.2 ft vs 34.4 ft.

His opinion of value was $40,000 or so less than mine

is really the underlying theme to this topic.

The key reasons you "won" in court are:

1) you got the value right, the other appraiser did not
2) your lawyer was better
3) you are a good appraiser, the other appraiser was not a good appraiser
4) your scope stmt was better

rounding to the nearest inch had nothing to do with it. My advice to the other appraiser would be: do a better job with your scope stmt, measure accurately and round to the nearest foot, and do a better job selecting comps.

 

[Steve Owen]

is just silly. You always round to something - and there is always a decision to make when you come in at 1/2 unit (inch or foot), round up or down?

Obviously you don't measure to the inch; therefore, you don't know this fact: in only about 1 out of 100 measurements does the tape come in on the 1/2 inch mark. Since, I used to round to the quarter foot, I know the answer: measuring to the inch is quicker. Don't really care whether that has any credibility with you or not.

All the other points you made work exactly the same whether you measure to the inch or tenth of a foot, as ANSI says you should, or whether you round to some higher number.

I use grid paper just like you do; comes out even, just like yours. Lots of times, especially on older homes, the walls on one length will be longer than the other, especially with large houses that have lots of calls. So what? Measuring to the standard still gets you a more accurate house size than rounding to some arbitrary number. That is something that you simply cannot dispute.

Actually the same goes for the two-story thing, or any of those other points. If you measure, to the best of your ability, to the nearest inch, the end result will be more accurate than if you round to the nearest foot. That holds true whether it's a two story, has vinyl (or hardboard, even worse) siding, or is an old house made with oak lumber.

I didn't "win" a court case. An appraiser cannot advocate for anything but his own work product and opinion of value. This house was such an odd ball that no two appraisers would be expected to come to the same opinion. Mine was more credible because I followed the ANSI standards (and other professional standards)... period.

Have you ever seen another appraiser make that stmt in a report?

We have a local appraiser's group that meets at the local Board of Realtors office. As far as I know, every single one of them measures to ANSI standards... we've had many discussions about it and what to do in odd or unusual situations. No one has ever disclaimed using the standards. (As to whether they say so in their reports... well, I'll bring that one up at the next meeting.)

One last thing:

When pulling a tape for a long measurement, the slack in the tape or the gutter downspout (etc) can easily throw off the accuracy by 2 or 3 inches

When I have a long measurement with things like that in the way, I measure it in several segments and add them together. You know you got it right if it comes out on the other side... if not, you re-check your work.

 

[Phil Rice]

I used to round to the quarter foot, I know the answer: measuring to the inch is quicker.

You are comparing measuring to the inch to the 1/4 foot. I never said anything about 1/4 ft, my comments are about measuring to the ft.

only about 1 out of 100 measurements does the tape come in on the 1/2 inch mark

if you rounded to the nearest foot, it would be the same. I can understand it would be harder to find the mid point of the 1/4 ft on the tape, but it is no problem to find the 1/2 ft on the tape.

I do not dispute that rounding to the nearest inch is "more accurate" than rounding to the nearest foot. I agree. It would be more accurate if you measured and rounded to the closest milimeter - use a microscope. The point is, it is overkill. There is no benefit in making something more accurate than it needs to be, other than being able to brag about following the standard. There is real cost in the quality of the part that matters (the value and/or turn time), because you are not making the best use of your time. The time you are "wasting" worring about inches could be spent doing a better job on something more important. I could easily spend 3 weeks on every appraisal assignment, and try to make everything "prefect". It's just not practical.

tenth of a foot, as ANSI says you should

is that what you do? Are you confident that everyone in the local appraisal group is measuring and rounding in 1/10 ft increments? If someone is using inches instead of 1/10 of a ft, are they "wrong" because they are "pick and choosing"?

You know you got it right if it comes out on the other side... if not, you re-check your work

and if you are worring about inches, you are gonna have to recheck more often than if you are worring about feet. I'll give you more accurate, but not faster, and certainly not both. The accuracy comes at a cost, the cost is the extra time it takes.

I am not saying it is wrong to follow ANSI. I am saying it is wrong to think you have to blindly follow all of it, and anyone who dares to use judgment is "wrong".

 

[Ariba]

Mike said,

I have a comment in my addendum that the square footage is approximate and if there is a conflict between the public record and the MLS...I use the public record.

Why? If you do not believe the real estate agent on the square footage why would you believe him/her on anything else he might say or put in the MLS? For example public record 2 bedrooms, MLS 3 bathrooms; MLS basement 100% finished, public record no finish, what if the added GLA and the public records were not changed.

Mike where do you draw the line. You have to be consistent you cannot pick and choose.

Ron
AppraiserPlus.com

 

[Mike Garrett RAA]

I am consistent...... When MLS says one thing and public record says something else (comps only) I use the public records. Why? Because if I am going to reviewed, the first thing the reviewer does is pull the public record.

Ron, we are seeing more and more agents using public records rather than measuring the property. I would venture a guess 75% or more do this IN MY MARKET.

Since I can't personally measure the comps I have to have some basis for my conclusions. I choose public record.

 

[Edd Gillespie]

I think I agree with Mike even though I frequently find error in the record.

Do you think it is trespassing to measure with disto from the street? Isn't too different from taking pics, is it?