Alamode/Mercury Fee report

[Terrel L. Shields]

To the best of my knowledge our local lenders are passing thru the cost at cost and the typical appraiser for non-fannie mae work is getting $300 - 350 and for fannie make work or FHA getting from $300 - 400 per appraisal. A few people appear to be doing 2055s for around $275. For secondary market, the fees are likely higher. What is so idiotic to me is that for most local banks, the rates are quite competitive and the closing costs of a loan are much cheaper than any mortgage broker offers. People bite on the hook of low interest rates without considering that they are folding over 5-10% additional into the loan in 'fees'. That is absurd. You have to be in a long term loan that you never intend to get out of to make up the difference.
A friend of mine a few years ago paid $105,000 for a house and $7,000 for closing costs. Saved a whole 0.25 of one percent. And stayed in the home less than 4 years. She got what was owed against it.

 

[Tim Hicks (Texas)]

Yea I hate PCV with their $200 broadcast order too.

I don't have a problem with giving Dave $10 per report sent in, but paying $13.75 even if the order gets cancelled PLUS $300 before you can even get one assignment is just greedy!

If he has any shame he should offer the Mercury Network to all appraisers, not just those who buy ala mode or an xSite, at the flat per order fee.

Get over yourself. If you are going to cry about $10 versus $13.75 When AMCs are offering $200 fees, you really don't need the work anyway. When all the AMCs start offering you $200 and don't accept your counter offers, $13.75 is going to look pretty good to you.

I have read all your posts and it appears you have an axe to grind with Alamode. The simple answer is don't use the Mercury Network if you don't need it. The x-site has multiple things to offer besides the Mercury Network, some of them might actually appeal to you if you gave it a chance. Heck, with the fees you appear to command, the $300 per year fee is a drop in the bucket for a Daddy Warbucks appraiser.

 

[Tim Hicks (Texas)]

Bwahahahahaha. Sorry. ACI is anything but a professional software company. They are evil and the reason some AMCs strip your report, mine your data, and overall undermine the appraisal profession. Just look at the jokers who helped write the software. Especially the PDF conversion software.

You know, I once called alamode and asked if there was any way I could convert an old PDF report I had back to Aurora. The guy told me "No. Never. It's unethical."

So, enjoy the ACI world and thanks for helping screw your brethren. Please drive through.

I totally agree. Is it really increasing market share if the AMCs demand you use a certain software for their obvious reasons? Certain software companies aligned themselves with the AMCs and big banks to increase their market share. They put their needs in front the appraisers. Alamode has always been the biggest appraisal software company for obvious reasons and never needed to align themselves with these companies to increase market share. Alamode has seemed to always put the appraisers (their real clients) first on their priority lists. Some may point out that Alamode does some of the same things with their conversion softwares as these other companies, but they only developed these conversion softwares to satisfy their client's (appraisers) needs to deliver their reports. They recognized that they would have to do this to avoid losing appraisers that felt pressured to switch to the AMCs preferred software.

You don't see any other software companies putting out reports about customary and reasonable fees in an attempt to help their clients (appraisers) get proper fees for FHA assignments. Why is that? Because these other software companies real clients are not the appraisers. If they did put out such a report, do you think their real clients would appreciate it? One does not bite the hand that feeds you. Who is biting who's hands here?

 

[Kali the Boston Terrier]

I totally agree. Is it really increasing market share if the AMCs demand you use a certain software for their obvious reasons? Certain software companies aligned themselves with the AMCs and big banks to increase their market share. They put their needs in front the appraisers. Alamode has always been the biggest appraisal software company for obvious reasons and never needed to align themselves with these companies to increase market share. Alamode has seemed to always put the appraisers (their real clients) first on their priority lists. Some may point out that Alamode does some of the same things with their conversion softwares as these other companies, but they only developed these conversion softwares to satisfy their client's (appraisers) needs to deliver their reports. They recognized that they would have to do this to avoid losing appraisers that felt pressured to switch to the AMCs preferred software.

You don't see any other software companies putting out reports about customary and reasonable fees in an attempt to help their clients (appraisers) get proper fees for FHA assignments. Why is that? Because these other software companies real clients are not the appraisers. If they did put out such a report, do you think their real clients would appreciate it? One does not bite the hand that feeds you. Who is biting who's hands here?

Great post, isn't it funny how people rag on Dave for creating a software company that helps appraisers, because he did a dirty thing like try to make money. How dare he charge us for services...I mean don't all his employees want to work for free, because the nobility of serving our profession.

I cannot wait for the day when appraisers realize they are not the royalty they believe there job represents.

 

[OSU Beavers]

Sorry for the long post. Not trying to start a war, just get some answers.

Get over yourself...
…I have read all your posts and it appears you have an axe to grind with Alamode. The simple answer is don't use the Mercury Network if you don't need it. The x-site has multiple things to offer besides the Mercury Network, some of them might actually appeal to you if you gave it a chance. Heck, with the fees you appear to command, the $300 per year fee is a drop in the bucket for a Daddy Warbucks appraiser.

Tim, I started my business with WinTotal and would still be using it if it hadn’t crashed so darn much. I got my money back and buried that axe long ago. The fees out here are higher because the volume is lower. I make the same per year as most other one man appraisal offices. Read below:

Read the report and the FAQs. If specific instructions were placed for extra forms, it was not included. We're trying to get to the base.

You've got the math backwards. An average is skewed more readily by a few high or low fees, not a median.… Averages are far more volatile in populations than medians, which is why you see median used so much.

That is why I suggested using a 12 month running average to smooth out the highs and lows.

I see three appraisers covering Grant county. It's irrelevant as to whether they live there. As I said, you can look it up yourself on Mercury and even see what they state their fees are. Or, you can just not believe that it's possible.

I did. As I stated before one appears to be an old old salt appraiser who had $350 entered as the URAR fee back when he signed up and just let his xSite sit there ever since. One is a Skippy from closer to Portland who appears to have cast a wide net by listing half the state in the coverage area. The third lists a fee for his own home county and I know his travel fee is more for a six hour round trip.

Getting work or not getting work has nothing to do with whether or not your fees are above or below median, or whether you believe that THEY don't already know it. Remember, they have lots of data -- you don't. Or at least didn't until now. I'm a firm believer that if someone else has data and you don't, you lose. You're just guessing.

I am not guessing about the fees in my own area. The data you have for my rural counties is incomplete for two reasons: 1) Less than half of the appraisers in my county are listed on your Mercury Network; 2) The number of transactions that took place in last month in my rural counties is too low to provide enough statistically significant data.

Rarely if ever do AMCs give you anything even approaching the non-AMC medians that we're reporting. The AFR is not the stick that's going get you beaten -- it's the one you can most likely use to fight back.

The better AMCs do and have been for the past 12 years. The bad ones can call Skippy in from 150 miles away to take that $350 fee.

And, as I and others have said repeatedly, then don't use Mercury. But at least read the report and the FAQs, or log into the site and see for yourself as a lender, instead of raising repeated points which you'd see to be inaccurate if you'd just check it yourself. It takes less of your time than these posts, and you'd be able to stick to things you dislike but at least are accurately posed.

I love free and open debate, but this is like arguing about whether it's daytime or nighttime with someone in a room shuttered up like Elvis' hotel. Take the foil off the windows and see for yourself.

I did and without knowing the number of transactions per county I cannot call your numbers accurate. I still do not see how Mercury is any better than a decent AMC since the lender can simply kick appraisers off their panel at the click of a button. The filtering criteria listed are the same old Fee and Turn time BS that AMCs have used to judge us for years. How are appraisers selected? Is it straight rotation? Can a lender select an appraiser by number of miles from the subject?

I think I've already posted here several times that as long as we don't see abuse of the system, we'll begin allowing free cancellations.

We will hold you to that.

XSites are required… That's what you asked for, not us.

I never followed the history of xSites, thanks for clearing that up.

So, in the past I got $299 for the Mercury Desktop and an additional fee of up to $799 for an XSite. Now I give the Desktop away for free so the XSites users -- who already had bought an XSite before Mercury ever came back into being -- pay nothing to be on Mercury. That's "shameful"?

You asked $1098 per year before the appraiser got order one? Wow, that does make $299 seem like a bargain then.

As for "greedy", you do realize that it's the height of irony for you to say that I'm greedy for charging $299 for a year-long service, while simultaneously claiming as your main point in this entire thread that the stats are wrong in your area and that you won't do a basic appraisal for less than $500, right? Remember, I've been an appraiser. I know what it takes to do a report for $350 versus what it takes to build, market, support, and update a web and desktop system for tens of thousands of people a year for the same $350. Yep, I make a lot of money, but I have a lot of risk, capital, and other skin in the game too. Greed isn't the issue.

Ten years ago the base fee everyone charged here in rural Oregon was $425. That was before $3/gallon gas, 300% health insurance premium increases, two extra listing per report and the 1004MC were required. The fees are higher out here because the distance to the subject and comps are greater, the research is more intensive (no computer records in some counties), and the difficulty is larger due to the eclectic nature of rural properties. The fees in rural Oregon also have to be higher due to the lower volume. I am not stamping out three a day, but maybe some appraisers are if you say the median fee is only $350 to $400!

“Mercury Network has handled over 11 million transactions” Can you see how 11,000,000 X $13.75 = $151,250,000 plus asking each appraiser for an extra $299 per year could seem to be greedy?

But again, I'll make the same consistent point I have all along: If you don't like it, don't use it. There's nobody forcing you to use or believe anything. If you prefer AMCs and AppraisalPort over XSites and Mercury, more power to you.

As I stated before I have not tried Mercury yet. I would love to try it, but with a new baby due in May I am more than a little hesitant to spend $299 up front on an xSite which may or may not get me any more business.

However, I do need to thank you for reminding me of the pricing model we used to have and why it was better. If I move back to charging for Mercury Desktop separately from the XSites, then nobody would be able to say that I "make" you have an XSite to use Mercury. Plus, I'd probably get at least 15,000 or so of the current XSites users to pay for Mercury Desktop. That would thin the herd a little on Mercury too. Even if I discounted Mercury Desktop to $199, I'd make another $3,000,000 a year by charging separately for it. I don't see any negatives (for me).

I'll send you a commission on it. Maybe you won't need those pesky Mercury orders after all!

Dave Biggers
Chairman
a la mode, inc

I’ll hold you to it. I have three, soon to be four kids to put through college and it seems everyone has their hand in my wallet trying to take a piece of my fee.

Finally I would like to thank you for taking the time to participate in this forum. If I seem upset it is because I have seen the gap between my gross and net widen dramatically over the past 12 years and being told that I am charging too much according to your report is outrageous. For your next report will you also include a 12 month running average for each county to smooth out the highs and lows?

Thank you

OSU Beavers

 

[dbiggers]

That is why I suggested using a 12 month running average to smooth out the highs and lows.

I am not guessing about the fees in my own area. The data you have for my rural counties is incomplete...

You asked $1098 per year before the appraiser got order one? Wow, that does make $299 seem like a bargain then.

Ten years ago the base fee everyone charged here in rural Oregon was $425. ....

“Mercury Network has handled over 11 million transactions” Can you see how 11,000,000 X $13.75 = $151,250,000 plus asking each appraiser for an extra $299 per year could seem to be greedy?

...and being told that I am charging too much according to your report is outrageous. For your next report will you also include a 12 month running average for each county to smooth out the highs and lows?

Thank you

OSU Beavers

Read the report FAQ, and the introduction. The report DOES USE 12 MONTHS OF DATA.

We never said we've included 100% of appraisers nationwide. We said we include 100% of appraisers who use Mercury and 100% of the applicable, verifiable, validated URAR base assignments in it. You can call that "incomplete", certainly, but we're simply saying that this is what we see. If you want to take the position that the fees posted and accepted are inaccurately low, that's your choice. But we've said throughout the report and followups that it SHOULD be a little low since we took out as many mismatches as possible.

However, just as a reference point, for many years we have indeed done surveys (not analyses of real reports), and the national results have been exactly what we see here -- $350 median for at least the last several years. So odds are, even taking out the oddities, we're not low by much overall.

No, we didn't ask for $1098. I said that back then, XSites were irrelevant to Mercury Network. It was $299 for Mercury Desktop. When we restarted Mercury, we saw that most Mercury users had an XSite already, so we gave them Mercury Desktop, which had been renamed XSites Order Manager, for free. If someone had spent $1098 in the past to have both, it was because they served two different channels and they did two different things. XSites go primarily after non-lenders (certainly post-HVCC they have to), and Mercury serves the mortgage market. BTW, an Enterprise XSite at $799 does far more than just get orders like Mercury; it's a complete billing and management system.

This isn't a report about what people charged 10 years ago. I charged more 10 years ago too. I charged even more than that 20 years ago. (Look at your technology costs compared to 20 years ago -- $8000 was a common price for a PC then, and $3000 for a URAR formfiller was not unheard of.) It would not be shocking that appraisal fees haven't gone up.

Mercury Network hasn't handled 11 million transactions in the last 2 months, as you well know. We only started charging on January 1st.

As the report states and as my posts have stated here over and over and over, there is no such thing as "charging too much", since the report covers only what we can identify as a base URAR, and the concept of "Reasonable" means that you would be the one to decide what specifically constitutes an appropriate fee for a particular property and its particular assignment. A 2.5 hour drive time for example would obviously raise the fee that you personally would reasonably charge above this baseline.

I figure in this time, you've written a thousand or more words about the single topic of what you don't like about the AFR and Mercury. If you took the same time to write 1000 words of fresh, engaging, keyword-rich content for your website (whether it's an XSite or not), you'd get so many full-fee non-lender orders that you wouldn't be worried about your fourth child (congratulations, by the way). Update it once a month, write a fresh blog once a week instead of some of these posts, and this discussion would be moot. Even the average XSite, where 1/3rd have not even changed their home page at all, makes (at last count) about $1800 a year in orders that drop in. That's out of the box with no customization. Those who do customize it rank much higher and get much more than that (80/20 rule).

So, there are lots of ways to raise your fee and prevent the AFR analysis from making you lose sleep.

Dave Biggers
Chairman
a la mode, inc.

 

[NC Appraising]

Dave,

OSU was to busy upgrading to a certified appraiser.

He was afraid of getting to much FHA work.


Yet, another sore subject for the OSU.

 

[Dale Smalley]

Ok Dave I have both of the products. No orders from Mercury and if I had a $1 for evey x-site order i might be able to go to starbucks. Point us in the right direction to make it profitable for all of us.

 

[Ray Miller]

Ok Dave I have both of the products. No orders from Mercury and if I had a $1 for evey x-site order i might be able to go to starbucks. Point us in the right direction to make it profitable for all of us.

You might visit the "wintotal2000 group" at yahoo groups. A lot of good information on the how to of x-sites and Merc.

Wealth of knowledge over there. Very little to no BS on that group.

 

[OSU Beavers]

But we've said throughout the report and followups that it SHOULD be a little low since we took out as many mismatches as possible...
...A 2.5 hour drive time for example would obviously raise the fee that you personally would reasonably charge above this baseline.

Thank you for stating that. If the AMCs come fee bashing I will be sure to let them know.

This isn't a report about what people charged 10 years ago. I charged more 10 years ago too. I charged even more than that 20 years ago. It would not be shocking that appraisal fees haven't gone up.

Tell me about it. I still have the Kodak DC210 I bought from you for $699 in 1998 in my closet. It was so expensive I just can’t bring myself to throw it away. While the adaptation of new technology such as digital cameras, paperless offices and electronic delivery has helped us increase production to offset the rise in our expenses, the advantage for us early adopters is now gone. The increase in fixed cost such as health and E&O insurance as well as variable costs such as over $3/gallon gas, greater reporting requirements (4sales, 2listings and a 1004MC), $10-$13.75 per report delivery charges can only mean one thing. Appraisal fees MUST go up not down.

I figure in this time, you've written a thousand or more words about the single topic of what you don't like about the AFR and Mercury.

If you think that is a lot of words you should see my reports. If I charge more than the median it is because my clients get their money’s worth.

If you took the same time to write 1000 words of fresh, engaging, keyword-rich content for your website (whether it's an XSite or not), you'd get so many full-fee non-lender orders that you wouldn't be worried about your fourth child (congratulations, by the way). Update it once a month, write a fresh blog once a week instead of some of these posts, and this discussion would be moot.

Thanks. Blogging sounds like a good idea.

Even the average XSite, where 1/3rd have not even changed their home page at all, makes (at last count) about $1800 a year in orders that drop in. That's out of the box with no customization. Those who do customize it rank much higher and get much more than that (80/20 rule).
Dave Biggers
Chairman
a la mode, inc.

I have to disagree with you there. See below.

Ok Dave I have both of the products. No orders from Mercury and if I had a $1 for evey x-site order i might be able to go to starbucks. Point us in the right direction to make it profitable for all of us.

I asked the forum about getting an xSite back in August and pretty much got the same response. One or two a year or nothing unless they are already in bed with a Mercury Network lender. I already get quite a few hits from my 12 year old basic website and I don’t think spending an extra $300 per year to get on or two extra $425 to $475 orders is cost effective. I still don’t understand HOW the Mercury Network works, but I guess I can call the sales staff when I get a chance.