Condo or zero lot line property?

[Will Granger]

Don,
I guess I have a lot to look forward to. N. C. doesn't have a lot of ownership variations. We are seeing some deeded boat docks and condo mini-storage buildings. I guess it's a matter of time. Thanks for the information. I think I've learned more on this forum in the past couple of weeks than the last couple of decades.

 

[wyecoyote]

Thanks all for the posts. Don you really taught me something there. Always considered that If the "site" was owned by the HO that it would be a zero lot line property (attached house). This was different than those legals that say unit #X with 1/100th undivided intrest in parcel zzz. This read lot #35. Well learn something everyday. Should have just read my old appraisal books.

Ryan

 

[jtrotta]

Ah, the Condominium; Cluster House; PUD; wonderful little items that cause more nausea than a case of beer.

It would be my opinion that this area is one in which reading becomes fun-da-mental because attorneys become the writters of the language in most parts of the country. Years back most municipality's never had anything on the books for zoning regarding alll of the above and over time these items have become a vision of a builder who took a trip to one part of the country or another and came back with an idea; he then sat down with his attorney and walla Condos; Cluster Housing; and PUD's were born. Each has it's own definition of what it is; municipality's had decided it wasn't in the rule book before so how are we going to "Tax" it, lets give it to the assessor, and then it gets brokendown.

In one of the municipality's I do the assessor does exactly what your describing and I asked why they have a lot# but actually don't own the land based on the leagal ease, the answer; it's the only was we can decifer the individual units for now, until we come up with a better idea.
Best thing is to include a copy of the Deed in the report and let the attorney's figure out there own mess.

 

[Don Clark]

8)

Jtrota:

Actually the condominium concept has been around from at least the period of the ancient roman empire, and some would argue, since ancient babylon. In this country, we copied what had been used for some time on the island of Puerto Rico. There have been sone excellent articles concerning this concept. The Fannie Mae concept only applies to one type of a condominium, a high rise where you own only the air space inside the unit. It does not matter if there is a unit description, a legal description showing an individual site with a detached property on it or any variation you can conceive of. The key is the condominium documents that establish a condominium form of ownership. In the documents it will describe the real estate and real property rights, as well as those rights held in common with others, and limited common elements that are for the exclusive use of the individual condominium owner such as but not limited to:

Porches, balconies,parking spaces, boat slips, storage areas and/or units,etc,etc.

In one days time in my part of the country I could show you 20 different variations. Everything from a high rise condo such as Fannie Mae describes to a 1950's era motel converted to a condo, to single family detached condos, to manufactured double wide homes that are condo units, to a 2 unit condo, where there is one owner of both units, to high rise hotels where each room is a condo unit with a right to occupancy by the owner of just 14 days a year. This concept is not hard to understand, it is a form of ownership, not an architectural style.

Don

 

[bradellis]

Don,

I agree that the condo determination is based upon legal filings. Virtually every state has a law outlining this.

If the unit comes with its own land- owned by the unit owner- it would generally trash any notion of it being a condo. In condos you own the air space from floor to ceiling and wall to wall. Other items- balconies, decks, pations, etc. are limited common elements under exclusive right to use.

So, if they own the land and there are common areas with the HOA covering maintenance, it looks like a PUD to me. 1004 form.

I did not know that condo ownership dated from european stuff. Heard nothing about Puerto Rico. Can you fill me in? Have you got this documentation? I was always told that the first condo in America is in Salt Lake City and dates only to 1960. If you have the data, I'd sure like it. You can e mail me privately at ellis6149@earthlink.net. Thanks,

Brad

 

[Don Clark]

8)

Brad:

Your definition is the fannie Mae definition, and it is not correct. I usually agree with a lot you have to say, but you are wrong on this one. A condominium is a form of ownership. You are describing a form of architecture, and using Fannie Mae and the AI definition. For goodness sake, we even have a condo cruise ship. Does not have to be real estate to be a condo. I was speaking to a lender in Maryland last week that said they are beginning to see single family detached condos there now. Think outside the box Brad. Fannie Mae is not an authority on anything except fannie mae requirements. By the way. Lot's of Fannie Mae financing for our local SFR with site owned condos. Now I am going to confuse you even more. I appraised a duplex that was converted to a 2 unit condo, on it's own site, that was bought by an attorney and now he owns both condo units and has a condo with himself :roll:

The island of Puerto Rico is not part of the continental US, and does not enjoy statehood. You may be right as to first condo in US.

I will do further research and see if I can find other referrences. If you will send me an e-mail

cdclark3@ix.netcom.com

and include your fax number, I will send you some examples I have used on this forum. Then you can call the local assessors and tell them they are wrong :twisted:

Don

 

[bradellis]

Don-

I will send you my fax number, but I think you misunderstood what I said.

I am well aware of the legal requirements of a condo- and not just what Fannie wants. I have done more than one detached home under condo ownership- for our readers in the northwest suburbs of Chicago, you can see one just west of the corner of Palatine Road and Arlington Heights Rd. in Arlington Heights. The subdivision is called "The Enclave".

While I cannot dispute that a condo can be in existence when there is individual ownership of the land, I will maintain that this is extremely rare. The typical scenario would be for the common areas to be part of a PUD HOA. Note that I said typical- not automatic.

've seen all sorts of buidings converted to condo use- including commercial condos. In fact, back in the mid-80's, I had contracts pending on units in such a building- actually mixed use. I was recuperating from bi-lateral hip replacement surgery when I got a call from another sales agent asking me about the "condo" status of the property. I confirmed it was a condo- 2 store fronts on the street, a 3 unit building adjacent, and a townhome behind that- all part of the condo. He protested, telling me that condos had to be apartments! I asked him to have his managing broker call me and I read him the riot act. He promised to educate his agent.

The scenario that began this thread looks just like a PUD. Absent condo declarations, I'd bet that is the case. But, I have said clearly that this is based upon legal documentation. Even the concept of owning air rights is subjet to this. In the USVI you own from the middle of the common wall inwards- based upon their laws. Surprised me when I heard this, but I got written docs confirming same.

I'll look forward to your info.

Brad

 

[Anonymous]

Don and Will:

You 2 are confusing me. I guess I was under the assumption that to be a condo all you could own was air space. That is the major portion of the legal definition in NC. If it owns land it CAN NOT be a condo. Don, what state are those units located in? I would sure like to see that. Very unusual form of ownership. I argue with brokers here all the time that townhouse is not a form of ownership. It is an architectural style. Now you go and through a curve in one of my steadfast, unbreakable, undeniaable truths.

And after 10 years I thought I was just getting to know this stuff!

 

[bradellis]

Bill,

Do not panic. Although what Don said was true- the form of ownership is determined by legal filings (a condo declaration must be done in virtually every state), it is HIGHLY unusual for the condo owner to own the land "under" his unit. HIGHLY unusual. Read your state's laws on condo ownership and it should clear it up for you. If you have/use a R.E. attorney, they can fill you in as well- especially those who actually write the condo decs.

I've read hundreds of such declarations and frankly, have never seen one that allowed the individual ownership of a lot. Not saying it is impossible- just very unlikely. And the building type is irrelevant. Detached SFR under condo, converted 2-12 unit buildings, newly built ones, hi-rises, low-rises, etc. I've served on two condo boards and managed another.

Now, it is certainly possible to have a variety of forms of ownership in a single complex- from fee simple to PUD to condo as a condo association can be a part of a larger HOA. Just check the docs and it will tell you what is up.

Brad

 

[Don Clark]

8)

Bill:

I sent several examples to Brad by fax. If you will e-mail me at
cdclark3@ix.netcom.com

and give me your fax number, I will send you what I sent Brad. Think FORM OF OWNERSHIP, that is what a condo is. There are literally hundreds of Condo STYLES.

BTW,I own a Townhouse in Kitty Hawk, NC at the Dune Tops Townhouses. It has HOA Fees, a swimming pool, common areas, and a common roof on the 2 buildings. However---IT IS NOT A CONDO. I am on the BOD of the HOA. The agent who sold it to us, a prominent Broker in the area listed it as a TH, but kept referring to it as a Condo. The Attorney who closed it as well as the Town of Kitty Hawk were aware that it was not a Condo, but kept calling it that :roll:

:lol: Arew we having fun yet :?: Remember, FORM OF OWNERSHIP :idea:

My Fax is 757-497-8507

Be glad to fax you lot's of examples. BTW, this seems to be getting real prominent in many areas to have a SFR detached Condo. I have one example that I sent to Brad that is a SFR 2 story, 3,610 on it's own lot 140x180 called Green Hill Farms Condominium. Solf for $475,000.00

Don