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Fannie, Freddie NTU Testimony

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Brad Pack

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Professional Status
General Public
State
California
Wayne,

An Umbrella Organization is a very good idea. Maybe it's already in the works. :wink:

Questions/Reality check:

How many times in this forum has any member of the NAIFA, ASA, AI, NAR or NAMA, initiated an attack on another organization or a non-affiliated appraiser - claim one was better than the other, ect.? ZERO!

How many times in this forum has a non-affiliated appraiser initiated an attack on one the various appraisal organizations? MANY TIMES!

Which particular appraisal organization/members (not listed above) has on numerous occassions attempted to belittle some of the aformentioned organizations? We all know which one!

Just for the record:

IMO, if someone does not belong to a particular organization(s), they should not talk ill of the organization(s). Just as, if one doesn't vote, keep thy yap shut. If someone doesn't want to be part of an organization, that is their business/right. But, if that same someone attacks any organization.......

Have a good weekend!
 

Head Surfer

Administrator
Staff member
Founder
Moderator
Joined
Jan 4, 2002
Professional Status
Retired Appraiser
State
Florida
Brad,

Maybe you haven't been with us long enough to remember. A couple of years ago, the "association wars" were raging at AppraisersForum.com. Glad they're over! "My association is better than your association", "My association is better than no association", "no association is better than your association", and so forth. Yes, there were some people that belonged to associations that contributed. And no we're not going through that again.

Re association membership:

It's obvious to me that the reason that someone does not belong to an organization is that they don't see the benefits. Otherwise they would join up in droves! Plain and simple. Do not construe this to mean that I don't think association membership is a good thing. Just that many appraisers don't see the benefits. You can't blame the appraiser for this. That would be tantamount to Edsel blaming the consumers because of their failure to make a car that the public wanted.

Just like cars, appraisal software, or anything else, people vote with their wallet. Choosing to buy (or join) or not buy (not join) is a vote for what they judge to be the benefits or the lack of benefits the product or service will provide them.

So my thought is to give them a new organization (with no negative past history), a new name, new directors, and a new attitude, something vastly different than what is offered today. If what is offered today had worked in the past then there wouldn't be the fragmentation in the industry there is today. There also wouldn't be all these people that choose not to belong to an organization because they don't see the benefits. Make the dues affordable, define some basic goals, work toward them, keep it simple and just do it! Give them what they want and need, they will come.

IMHO that's the only way it will ever get done.

Of course the present associations would never agree to do this because one of them would want to have an advantage over the other and they could probably never get past agreeing on the size of the negotiating table, aka the Vietnam era "peace talks".

Back to my TV and Darlington Qualifying... :D
 

Ruth Potulin

Freshman Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2002
Wayne and Brad:

It seems to me that the perfect UMBRELLA organization for all appraisers is the American Guild of Appraisers, our union. We can still all belong to the appraisal associations that we each choose to belong to, while still all belonging to one union under one umbrella. The two can mix perfectly. Our union has the clout we need. We all know that none of the appraisal organization have clout because the associations are separate and individual, and so they should be. That's fine let them enjoy their autonomy, while all appraisers belong to one union.

I belong to two appraisal organizations and I like what they do for me, and what they can't do for me, the union can. It's like having the best of both worlds.

Sounds simple to me.

Ruth Potulin
 

bradellis

Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Wayne, Brad and Ruth,

1. There IS an umbrella organization being formed. It will succeeed only if the organizations begin to understand its necessity. This group is working on it and I fear mostly that one of the larger groups will scuttle the effort.

2. What do we do if they fail? One option is for the groups who have NOT tried to scuttle the umbrella to receive members from those who get angry at the groups who DID (if it happens) scuttle the umbrella. Payback is a real way to make you feelings known.

3. Ruth, I am well aware that Bill Sentner wants all the associations to exist under a union umberlla- he has told me so personally. BUT, this is a true pipe dream and will never happen. There are simply way too many who do not want to belong to a union and there is way too much bad blood already in existence over some of the things they tried to do to the associations already. They have ben aroudn now for many years with absolutely nothing to show for their existence except talk.

If they truly had the clout, we would already have congressional hearings on appraisers vs. lenders. They would have been asked to tesify on the predatory lending questions. There would be real changes in the laws of some states. None of this has happened, nor will it. The reason is that the AGA is a lost step child of the AFL-CIO who probably cares little it al all that they even exist.

The better course for appraisers, in my view, lies within Wayne's suggestions- which frankly, have already been implemented in a discourse on how best to serve the appraiser members of the associations. Whether we get there or not mauy well depend upon how many members press their organizations to do this. And, if the bigger ones do not play ball, it will cause us all to lose more than we want to admit.

Brad Ellis, IFA,RAA
 

Residential Appraisal Ser

Sophomore Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2002
Brad: I feel that I have to answer you on several points that you have brought up. I have spoken to you regard the Guild being an umbrella organization. It was not the general appraisal population that fought the idea, but AI, NAIFA & to a lesser extent ASA. NAIFA lead the way in trying to scuttle our crediablilty.

Be that as it may. You are still postulating on what the Guild is doing and what the relationship of the Guild is with AFL-CIO. I again will go on record as to what we have done and what we have accomplished in a short 3 years.

1. The appraisal organizations (AI, ASA, NAIFA) are trying to form an umbrella organziation. This idea came from the Guild. The umbrella organization claims as a goal to have Congressional Clout when formed.
My question is, when AI had 30,000 members they didn't have clout, what would be different.

The Guilds clout comes from AFL-CIO which repersents 16 Million members made up of 78 independant Unions. Each union has their own political people that work through AFL-CIO organizations on the State & Federal level. These organizations are; as an example, on a state bases, part of district union organizations throughout a state. We have the power to be listened to through votes and finance. If all 75,000 appraisers belonged to one organization (umbrella) the would not have the ability to have access and get major changes simply because they don't have the money or membership to be listened to. Proof of that is, they haven't won a battle since 1987. The first thing that they should do is take back their own Appraisal Foundation.

You said that AFL-CIO doesn't care about the Guild because we are to small. We are part of OPEIU which has over 200,000 members. We take part in the AFL-CIO federal state and district labor councils repersenting the Guild.

We have had laws passed in several states with the help of AFL-CIO. The last being Pennsylvania. It took 2 years, but the vote was 50-0 in the Senate and the law is now in the house. 4 other laws were passed in that same state. Our appeal to the appraisal organizations went unanswered.

ILL as you know passed a bad law and our appeal to the appraisal organizations for unity to pass a good law went un answered The organizations signed off on the law and today we are leading the fight in damage control through our State President Bob Gorman who by the way is an MAI and one of the first members of the ILL board.

New Jersey: we were able to get the Banking Commission to form a unit to look into bad debt by dead beat lenders. The collection rate is 90+%. Appraisers can go to the Banking Commission for bad debt collection because of the Guild.

On a federal level we were the only organization that has worked on the up charging of Appraisals and other services by lenders to the consumer.
We started by suing PHH Cendant Mortgage, and working on HUD to enforce RESPA. It fell on deaf ears with the previous adminstration, but struck a note with the New Sec of HUD> He fined 53 lenders 2.3 millon and has resisisted presure from Lenders, NAR and the MBA to back off. Last month the Justice Dept joined as a Friendly 3rd party against the lenders. 5 of our members worked on the Handbook and test questions. We received the 2000 Best Practices Award. My hat is off to all that worked on that project. Today we are fighting for appraiser rights that have been taken off the list on trumped up charges to make figures look good. It wasn't good enough as the Home centers are being dismantled as a total failure.

There are a number of other projects that we have accomplished and are deeply involved in. Testifying before committees is good for headlines, if that is the route that one wants to go. We have choosen to work in the halls of congress and senate and get things done, by walking softly and carrying a big stick. When I walk into Senator Allards, Sarbanes, or Rep Schakowskys office and speak with them, I have the AFL-CIO over my shoulder and they listen to what I have to say.

We have been working on FANNIE MAE and FREDDIE MAC for the past 2 years and you are begining to see results.

Brad. Its not how much you blow your horn, but what can be accomplished. We have a down side. That is we havent time to publicize what we are doing. That takes time and we are on a mission to try to save what is left of the profession.

We have asked and continue to ask all apprasial organizations to join with us under an umberlla that will accomplish something for the appraiser. We have the leglislative clout, benefits, ability to educate the consumer about appraisers and we hope jobs.

I don't get a warm fuzze feeling about AI, ASA, & NAIFA trying to invent a wheel that is already functioning.

Best regards

Bill Sentner
President
American Guild of Appraisers OPEIU AFL-CIO
 

bradellis

Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Bill,

I continue to be astounded by your claims. I am sure you believe all you said, but, frankly, I see it differently.

You talk about IL having a bad law, and that the associations just signed off on it. Not true. The IL law is fine (excect that I would love to see it become a fully mandatory state). What you are now involved in is a set of administative rules and the associations, via ICAP, have expressed their views.

As to NAIFA scuttling your plans, that is also not true. It is/was the AGA that used NAIFA assets- chapter meetings and chat rooms, along with mailings showing both logos, to promote your membership. Neither NAIFA nor I, personally, have anything to do with the AGA. My views are mine alone and I have always said that I wish you the best in your endeavors, but simply to leave NAIFA out of it.

And let's get history straight. It was NOT the AGA that occasioned the formation of an umbrella group. This was talked about way before the formation of the AGA. And, remember that I raised the question of a union with Dom Pompeo in Tulsa well before the AGA was even formed.

Again, I wish you well in your endeavors, but I will continue to speak out with what I know to be true, even if it conflicts with your beliefs.

You said that you have the ears of Sen Sarbanes, Rep. Jan Schakowsky, and others. Jan introduced the predatory lending bill. It died. Sen. Sarbanes chairs the Senate banking committee. What are they doing? Well, they are involving the GAO, but is it over appraiser inependence or lender pressure? No. They are looking to gut FIRREA Title XI- at the request of Sen. Zell Miller of GA who may well just have other fish to fry- like a dispute between his state and the ASC. We'll see. BUT, I have NOT seen anything that remotely looks like help for appraisers.

His committee also regulates funding for HUD. Will they be asking HUD to revisit the review program, or will they simply roll over and let Martinez implement a witch hunt against appraisers every time one of their unscrupulous lenders does a poor underwriting job (or worse, perpetrates a fraud against the public)?

Time will tell, as it always does. Bob Gorman, MAI is a really solid guy and you are well served by his involvement. Let's see if he gets anywhere.

Brad
 

Residential Appraisal Ser

Sophomore Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2002
Brad: The fact is that the ILL law is in my opinion a bad law. It set the Deminimus at the federal level and BPOs under the deminimus are considered appraisals.. Sounds like a victory for NAR. Not for apprasiers. Also nothing in law about AVMs. That is why we were against it. We had ILL over a barrel and let them slip away. I think that is bad leglislation.

I will stand by my NAIFA statement.

Jans bill didn't die it is still alive under another bill number. Don't sell the Senate committee short. I don't know where you are getting your information, but I am in the halls of congress and don't see it that way. I will agree with you on your statement that their are alot of snakes crawling around. All the more reason for us to band together under one banner.

Bill Sentner
President
American Guild of Apprasiers OPEIU AFL-CIO
[email protected]
 

Fred

Elite Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Professional Status
Retired Appraiser
State
Virgin Islands
Brad,
You need to learn how to recognize Bill's ghost writers. The tipoff is the lack of spelling errors and the presence of coherent sentences; (not to mention the new poster ID). I have been reading Bill's posts for four years and recongize the difference.

To whomever wrote the post:
I continue to object to the AGA using these forums for their highly-exxaggerated and self-serving spam.

And I repeat my oft-made request. I would like to know how many members the AGA has. I do not need another lecture about why I am a bad or stupid person for asking. I think it is reasonable for us to know whether the AGA is a money-making or money-losing division of larger Union. I hear from a very good source that the AGA is losing money.

As to NAIFA scuttling the AGA's plans: If a small group of nobodies like us can hault the AGA juggernaut, then maybe there's too little 'jugger' and too much 'naut.'
 

Ruth Potulin

Freshman Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2002
Dear Fellow Appraisers and Organizations:

In regard to Wayne's idea of all appraiser organizations giving up their independence and becoming one umbrella organization, I suggest a different twist to what he wrote.

Most of the independent countries of this world have joined the United Nations. Each country is still separate and independent in their laws and ways of governing their citizens while they join together within the United Nations to work on global matters that affect all of them.

Instead of all appraisal organizations becoming one big organization and giving up their separate organizations. (Which they will never do.) What if all the appraisal organizations organized an umbrella entity like the United Nations where they send representatives from each of their independent organizations (who would be representing their members) to meet at the umbrella entities meetings to work on matters that need a united front for the benefit of all of their appraiser members. If they all spoke in one voice for all appraisers that could be a very powerful tool in dealing with the outside world. If this "United Appraisal Organizations" entity saw fit to utilize, as consultants and a resource (and even support), our appraiser's union as its separate entity, it would give them even more power. Plus we'd be getting the best minds and ideas from each appraisal organization to come up with united plans to fight for appraisers. Leaving no appraisal organization out (not just a click of organizations).

Certain countries don't like other countries that belong to the United Nations, but non are excluded unless they have done notorious things that harm the rest of the world community. (I feel the Appraisal Foundation and "the like" who are not 100% appraisers should not be included. Just the actual organizations sponsored 100% by appraiser members.)

*****

Please, ALL APPRAISAL ORGANIZATIONS, appraisers need serious help. We need our self respect back and we need power over our own profession. We need you to put your differences aside and work together for all of us. Instead of appraisers having to find an alternative umbrella organization that leaves you out of the loop. Appraisers are treated like dogs, threatened to make values or else loose their business, and don't get paid for hundreds of thousands of dollars in appraisal fees that are due appraisers all across the country. A "United Appraisal Organizations" entity could make a real difference in the quality of the lives of all of your members without loosing your independence as separate organizations. And if done in conjunction with utilizing our union as a powerful resource, we could see real organized results in the totality of it all. We need to stop all the bickering and use EVERY RESOURCE that we can possibly gather to fight the powers that are working against us (not fight against each other with our egos).

*****

In my mind, every single appraisal organization that has the true desire to better the circumstances of the appraisal field, and desire to help appraisers out of our Hell, is a friend to all appraisers and is a valuable resource to the appraisal field. Can you imagine if all of those resources were working TOGETHER to achieve the same goals?

Sincerely,
Ruth Potulin
 
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