Firewall/Ceiling for Basement Garage

[Alpine]

Actually, feel free to close this thread. If any sincere appraisers who have good counsel and experience with this issue would like to help me, they can contact me via private message. Thank you.

 

[mark hurlock]

Perhaps I did not make it clear that this is for an FHA loan, thus my understanding that HUD/FHA MPRs require a firewall between garages and living area. I thought that was evident by posting in this section, and it would seem that HUD/FHA requires appraisers to "require" that properties comply with the MPRs.

Hearsay? My very purpose in posting was to avoid speculation on how HUD/FHA MPRs would apply here, as I've failed to find specific direction in my search of HUD/FHA sources, and I've observed real expertise in the forum both in terms of knowledge and links to authoritative sources.

In conventional appraising, I typically avoid requiring anything code-wise, what to speak of applying current "code" to a house built in 1950. I am simply seeking assistance determining how the HUD/FHA MPRs for firewalls between garages and living areas apply to this situation.

Al,

I am unaware of any particular FHA guideline specific to firewalls.

However, I do believe FHA addresses safety issues and I would never argue that a firewall is not a safety concern.

I recommend that you read the guideline and decide for yourself how to handle it. Yes, there is often a lack of consensus on this board.

 

[mark hurlock]

I can't see any way to avoid calling for the firewall if the large opening remains, allowing someone to park a vehicle inside, based on fire and carbon-monoxide issues. To complicate matters, although the dwelling is heated by electric baseboard units in each room, there is an old wood-burning furnace in the basement, with ducting to all rooms-- even rarer in these parts! Although it likely has not been used in decades, it looks fully connected/functional.

Gratitude in advance for authoritative info and informed opinions.

Just because there is a door wide enough to drive a car through does not make it a garage.

By definition a garage is a structure or building to park or store an automobile. If it does not qualify as a garage, it may just be a walkout basement with a wide door.

I might appraise it as a full basement and give no value as a garage and make a comment stating it has a 9' door and the tax records indicate it is a garage but it does not meet the safety requirements of a garage.

 

[Alpine]

Just because there is a door wide enough to drive a car through does not make it a garage.

By definition a garage is a structure or building to park or store an automobile. If it does not qualify as a garage, it may just be a walkout basement with a wide door.

I might appraise it as a full basement and give no value as a garage and make a comment stating it has a 9' door and the tax records indicate it is a garage but it does not meet the safety requirements of a garage.

Mark,
Thanks for your constructive input. It is much appreciated.

 

[Meandering]

Not for nothing, but,

If your home was built in the 1950s, you may have a hard time explaining how it had a garage for 60 years until you came to appraise it, if that is what is reflected in the tax records.

I believe your thoughts are good in finding cost to cure that is economically feasible, but those tax records are the thing that's going to hang you down the road.

is it possible that it had a partition wall in the past, between the basement and garage area, which has been removed? If so you could recommend a change be made to the tax records to remove the garage from the tax records.

.

 

[Rlong]

Recommending the owner eliminate his garage sounds like going in the wrong direction in value/functionality.

HUD does not enforce local building Code (you can find this quoted somewhere in FAQ I think); you would have to "declare" an unsafe condition specific to HUD requirements... they do not "back reference" local code.

We don't "make" homeowners remodel there homes to meet our interpretation of somewhat obscure guidelines..

Bob in CO

 

[RSW]

I'd love to take your word for it, with you being Certified General and a moderator (no offense), but I've read too many Forum threads wherein experienced, qualified appraisers adamantly disagreed with one another over HUD/FHA MPRs and Fannie/Freddie guidelines. My research of previous threads for this inquiry found dozens of posts by experienced FHA appraisers stating emphatically that there must be drywall/firewall between any garages and living areas, thus my confusion. We are a tribe predisposed to eat our own before assisting our brethren with authoritative source data.

My personal experience has been that underwriters categorically require the specific repairs cited by the appraisers, nothing more, nothing less, and defer to the appraiser for interpretation/application of the HUD/FHA MPRs. It is also my experience that parties to the sale routinely ask the appraiser for the simplest way to make a property comply, which is why I mentioned the idea of replacing the vehicle door with a man-door.

Regarding local "codes" trumping HUD/FHA MPRs, I disagree. My county does not require that manufactured homes have tie-downs. But I've seen dozens of manufactured homes of all ages have them installed as part of an FHA loan, based on the Engineer's Report and underwriting requirements.

I'd be surprised, if relieved, to see a consensus of appraisers stating that HUD/FHA does not require any firewall protection between attached garages and living areas, so let us see if that manifests here in the days ahead.

I've been doing FHA appraisals since 1995. I have read every manual, mortgagee letter and viewed about all of the videos available several times over the years. I have never seen or heard any directive from the FHA that says a firewall is required. If that be the case then half of the homes in Knoxville which are 40+ years old and have basement garages would not qualify. My home is one of those homes. Please show me where this requirement is other than just referring to forum posts. I can only think of one situation where the FHA says a property has to be up to code and that is in dealing with a water heater.

 

[mark hurlock]

Not for nothing, but,

If your home was built in the 1950s, you may have a hard time explaining how it had a garage for 60 years until you came to appraise it, if that is what is reflected in the tax records.

I believe your thoughts are good in finding cost to cure that is economically feasible, but those tax records are the thing that's going to hang you down the road.

is it possible that it had a partition wall in the past, between the basement and garage area, which has been removed? If so you could recommend a change be made to the tax records to remove the garage from the tax records.

.

Marion,

I come across incorrect tax records on a regular basis. They often report incorrect room count, gross living area and accessory units as well as garages.

Suggesting that one must use the tax records rather than what is actually observed during inspection is unreasonable.

There is no compelling argument that a “basement” must be a garage because the assessor said so 60 years ago.

If it does not qualify for a garage, it might not be. A basement can be used for many things that would need a large access door.

I would like one myself but not to park my car in there.

My grandmother had a house built in 1940s with a basement garage. It was completely separated from the rest of the unfinished basement and had a firewall finish. The was no question it was a garage. Therefore, the age of the structure is not a consideration. It is a matter of function and if it does not function as a garage, it does not have to be labeled a garage.



Opinions may vary.

 

[mark hurlock]

This inquiry may seem redundant, based on a recent thread about a garage needing a "ceiling", or self-evident, but I need specific advice. While I routinely call for drywall/firewalls to be installed on the wall between an attached garage and a dwelling, we see so few basements here in Oregon-- and fewer basement garages-- I've yet to encounter the following set-up.

The subject: Single level 1950s Rambler measuring approximately 24' x 50'. Due to its mildly sloping parcel, three of the sides are bermed/ground level, with the north side cut away with retaining walls to accommodate a 24' x 29' basement under approximately 3/5 of the dwelling. The basement is entirely open with no partitions. Walls are poured concrete, and ceiling is open wood joists and exposed wood-plank subfloor of the first level floor. The basement is accessed via a typical interior stairway from the main level, and via a 9' wide basement wall opening which is covered by a horizontally sliding "garage" door. The assessor's records correctly cite the basement area as 667sf, and reference the "Basement garage" as 230 sf (of the 667sf). This would assign it a theoretical 10' width by the 23' depth, despite the lack of partition walls.

My experience and gut tell me that there must be drywall installed on the ceiling, and possibly a dividing firewall with fire-rated door enclosing the garage portion. I expect that the parties involved in the sale are going to object when informed of that, because there is so much heat ducting and exposed plumbing/wiring/mechanical in the ceiling that drywall installation will be complicated, so I will likely need authoritative references.

I read an old thread which described a similar scenario, wherein the OP proposed a second option of walling in the vehicle opening and reducing the access to a "man-door", which is a cheaper option, and negates the need for the extensive drywall. Contributors to that thread berated the OP for over-stepping his role, but my experience is that the agents/sellers/buyers in these situations want the appraiser to call for the cheapest, fastest fix so the property can qualify and close escrow. In this case, because the existing garage door is a barn-type wooden sliding door, replacing it is probably the simplest, cheapest option.

I can't see any way to avoid calling for the firewall if the large opening remains, allowing someone to park a vehicle inside, based on fire and carbon-monoxide issues. To complicate matters, although the dwelling is heated by electric baseboard units in each room, there is an old wood-burning furnace in the basement, with ducting to all rooms-- even rarer in these parts! Although it likely has not been used in decades, it looks fully connected/functional.

Gratitude in advance for authoritative info and informed opinions.

Al,

there is another consideration to your basement. Is there any combustion equipment down there like a gas water heater, gas or oil furnace or boiler that draws combustion air from the basement?

If so, you have another safety concern. Combustion equipment should not draw air from a garage.

This is another reason it may not function as a garage.

 

[mark hurlock]

Recommending the owner eliminate his garage sounds like going in the wrong direction in value/functionality.

Are you assuming there is an actual “value” for this garage door leading to the basement just because you call it a garage?

The fact that it is labeled a basement or a garage may have no value difference at all.

I agree that removing the door is not a reasonable request as there is no reason a basement can not have a 9' door.