First Time Doing A Divorse Appraisal

[xm39hnu]

Good Lord, Pat,
He said his supervisor cleared it with the client. If the client is OK with it, and Joshua's supervisor is going to teach him how, where do you find incompetence or ethics violations? The only way you ever really learn anything in this profession is by doing it. He's gonna be supervised. He's gonna be reviewed. And if he has to testify, he'll be coached. Judging from his post, he'll probably order a couple of books from Amazon on how to testify as an expert witness as well.

Ted-- There's a difference between being an experienced appraiser who is going to court for the first time and being a TRAINEE who is going to court for the first time.

Respectfully, Pat, there isn't any such difference. The experienced appraiser who is inexperienced in court will be no less likely to make a mistake than a trainee appraiser who hasn't testified in court.

But the Joshua's testimony might not be needed. His supervisor has to take full responsibility for the report. Joshua's side would put the supervisor on the witness list to start with. The other side might call Joshua, but he'd fail voir dire by virtue of his trainee status and inexperience. The other side knows this, and while Joshua might be subpoenaed, and might be called to the stand, his testimony would be limited to the facts that he is a trainee, and that he was guided through every step of the appraisal process from market analysis to licking the stamp. You said it yourself:

Does the trainee bring their supervisor to court?? That's just screaming of incompetency in the mind of a judge or jury.

You can't give expert testimony unless you can qualify under Frye and/or Daubert as an expert.

And don't forget: The client has consented to this.

 

[Pat Butler]

He said in a previous post that he did his first appraisal by himself sometime back in June of this year. And he is still being 'supervised.' A big part of court work is an appraiser's experience level and credentials. It's often those credentials which sway a judge or jury towards your opinion versus someone else’s. His experience and credentials are seriously lacking to have any influence in this type of area over a more experienced appraiser. Of course, he might know that if he ever cared to listen to any appraisers who have that type of experience. I agree with you that an experienced appraiser should also have enough skills to be able to present himself as a professional in such situations. I never said anything to the contrary.

I don't know what area you practice in, but in my area if an appraiser said that they did their first appraisal by themselves only 2-3 months ago then they probably not even qualify as an expert. Not only that, but if they also admitted that they were still being supervised then that would surely wash them out. It's great that he is still being supervised, but it's the very nature of needing that 'supervision' that makes him unqualified.

Jim, you said, “If I were the attorney on Joshua's side, I would challenge his ability to testify on the basis of his inexperience and his status as a trainee" Excuse me--- isn't that exactly what I have been saying????

If you look at some of Ted's previous posts you will see bitterness expressed every time someone suggests that he makes sure that he has the competency to complete some sort of assignment. He lashes out at them with the same sort of banter like, "I'm sure you had a first time to do this sort of thing." I agree that we all have 'firsts' when it comes to certain assignments. But there still is a natural building up of skills that lead one to the next level- it's a block building type of approach. Jumping from being a supervised trainee to an appraiser testifying in court is a huge leap that has missed a lot of prerequisite steps.

Ted has also complained at the lack of assistance provided by his supervisor-- he has commented that his supervisor appears to not have enough time to give him. And he still considers that he has the competency (without proper supervisor support, per his own admission) to offer services in a court environment?

I'm not one of the old-time appraisers who somehow think that newer appraisers can't do anything. But Ted is an appraiser who asks very basic questions and complains about his lack of support by his supervisor, yet still seems to think he is qualified in a court setting. All of us start at the beginning and need assistance of some sort from others, and there is nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't make us qualified in all areas of appraisal simply because we have that supervision.

 

[Pat Butler]

Excuse me- I substituted Ted's name for Joshua's in my prior post. The main arguments still stand however. Good Labor Day everyone!

 

[Rich Hahn]

First Clue is the spelling of Divorse....
I thought it was Divorce.

 

[xm39hnu]

Pat,
My impression of his post was that he would be supervised properly. I agree with you that if he is largely unsupervised, he shouldn't do this one because he won't make it past voir dire to testify, and probably won't have a workfile adequate to support his testimony (assuming a properly contested opinion).

My statement about the experienced appraiser being just as much at risk on the witness stand flows from a knowledge of a few cross examination tricks. For example:

Q: Isn't it true, Mr. Appraiser, that cost does not represent value?
Wrong A: Yes, but...
Q: Thankyousir. And isn't it true that the cost approach is one of the methods upon which you relied ....

Better A: While it is true that cost does not equal value, it is also well established that, in most situations, a person will pay no more for a structure than the cost to build a new one. This is called the principle of substitution ... (explanation continues without interruption).

Knowing that you must lead your answer with a dependent clause in order to get your explanation on the record in context is one of the things which sets the experienced expert witness apart from the new guy. Having expertise in appraisal matters would certainly be no handicap; but having the record full of "Yes, but..." makes you look like you've just got out of school. (Note: I had to edit that "better answer" three times before I posted it, so I can't qualify as a "skilled expert witness", either, even though I'm familiar with some of the cross-exam tricks.)

Joshua doesn't make the cut in either respect. He's not an expert appraiser, and he isn't a skilled expert witness. He should make sure the client who gave is consent to his stated arrangement gave a fully informed consent, and he should get that informed consent in writing, and note it in the scope of work section. He should be <properly> supervised during the appraisal. Absent either of those conditions, Pat, I agree with you: he shouldn't do it.

Hey Rich, even the best of us make typos. If we get too critical of their posts or disparaging in our replies, then guys like Joshua will quit asking questions for fear of being humiliated. He probably won't spell it "divorse" in the scope of work.

 

[tedflanders]

Hey Pat, my supervisor is signing on a divorce appraisal and yes he would be coming to court with me. He signed the report and is as responsible as I am if not more so. Once I get this one out of the way, then I have "some" experience, a few more, and I am experienced, at least somewhat. If I bow out on each appraisal that I am not confident in doing, I would be filing bankruptcy and not gaining any experience at all, therefore, never becoming competent to do anything but a cookie cutter. Right? Just my opinion.......and you know what that is worth......hehe.

 

[EDWARD BERRY]

WITHOUT PAY, UPFRONT, I CAN Remember NOTHING.

Works every time down here in Arkansas.

 

[Joshua Fookes]

Not to get too defensive here, but I would like a little clarification,

Excuse me- I substituted Ted's name for Joshua's in my prior post. The main arguments still stand however. Good Labor Day everyone!

If you look at some of Ted's previous posts you will see bitterness expressed every time someone suggests that he makes sure that he has the competency to complete some sort of assignment. He lashes out at them with the same sort of banter like, "I'm sure you had a first time to do this sort of thing."

I can't recall a single time I (Joshua) have ever done that. Most of the time I've said myself that I'm a newbie, etc, etc. I know I have competency problems. that's why I ask the questions I ask. I'm trying to become competent. Yeah I ask basic questions, why beat around the bush? If I want to know something, I'm going to ask.

Ted has also complained at the lack of assistance provided by his supervisor-- he has commented that his supervisor appears to not have enough time to give him. And he still considers that he has the competency (without proper supervisor support, per his own admission) to offer services in a court environment?

Again, did you mean Ted, or Josh? I have never dogged my suppervisor on this forum. Yes he is busy (who isn't), but everytime I need to talk to them he is always there. And I talk to him a lot! I ask him and many times I ask the forum people the same questions. Because different people with different experience handle things differently and have a different take on things. I think I'm being rather prudent. Just because I ask lame greenie questions here does not mean that my supervisor is too busy to ask. I ask him the same lame duck greenie questions.

But Ted is an appraiser who asks very basic questions and complains about his lack of support by his supervisor, yet still seems to think he is qualified in a court setting.

Yes I (Josh) am an appraiser who asks very basic questions but I have never complained about the "lack of support by [my] supervisor". Did I say I thought I was qualified in court setting? NO

I said I would to the best I can and defend my appraisal, that's all I said.

If you're going to ream a guy, make sure you have your targets clear. <_<

Josh

 

[xm39hnu]

Originally posted by EDWARD BERRY@Sep 1 2003, 03:28 PM
WITHOUT PAY, UPFRONT, I CAN Remember NOTHING.

Works every time down here in Arkansas.

Oh boy, I like that!

 

[tedflanders]

I forgot to mention that I did get a new supervisor. One that promised to actually train me. Sorry that you take me as being bitter and LASHING out, thats your opinion, not my intent. This is just a very negative board and I guess I just need to get used to that. Didnt mean to offend anyone, I will definitely pick and choose my words before I post here again. I apologize if I offended or upset anyone, that wasnt my intent. I will just save my questions for my supervisor. It seems to me, most of you forgot where you came from. Once again, just my opinion.