Florida Room or Enclosed Porch

[DTB]

I don't know, but there are a lot of AVS additions on top of brick ranches in my market. Many are are finished in paneling and acoustic ceiling tiles with the first floor all lathe and plaster.

Better believe it's GLA.

React to your market not a book.

 

[Brad Ellis]

Mike,

IF the space does not meet the requirements of ANSI, AND is not permitted, how do you get around the requirement that appraisers use recogized methods and techniques?

Nationally, ANSI IS recognized as the method for calculating size. Fannie adopted it- so did Freddie and the NAHB and NAR.

Note that there is NO prohibition against giving this space the same or even more value that the rest of the home- only that the size be acuarate or reasonably so.

Brad

 

[Don Clark]

Not sure that Fannie has adopted

Fannie, Freddie, VA, FHA, etc may "recognize" the ANSI standard. But I doubt they have "adopted" it or can legally require it. In my state of Virginia we have been told that we can use that standard but it is not required as "local custome and practice" are more important.

 

[Bill_FL]

Don hit the nail on the head. What is local practice?

There was a time, in Miami, (not sure if it is still like this) but public records reported the square footage as a forumla something like: 100% of level 1, 50% of level 2, 30% of garage, 5% of proches, etc, etc. So, when it said like 3500sf, it was a combination of a lot of things.

Problem is, the public were buying homes based on that number, using $per square foot. Now, as an appraiser, should you not also be doing that, as that is the local custom? That is how the local, educated buyers and sellers are interacting in the market.

 

[Brad Ellis]

Don,

Fannie has adopted it. Heck, they were ON the committee.

Look folks, this whole thing was done BECAUSE local customs varied so widely. THAT is why this was done.

This is the ONLY truly defensible position an appraiser can take. Otherwise, you will have to later defend your actions based upon local custom- and I guarantee you that if you end up fighting me over it I'll find as many who say you are wrong as you will find that say you are right. Might not beat you but it sure would drive you nuts. BUT, if you use ANSI, you CANNOT be faulted.

Why fight it? It has nothing at all to do with value- and value is what you are supposed to be about.

Sheesh...

Brad

 

[Terry Caldwell]

In south FL there are many older homes with finished or unfinished enclosed porches. Some appraisers included finished enclosed porches in GLA. I like to seperate these areas since they were not designed or built as living area, meaning structurally they are not high enough above grade, dont have electrical or plumbing facilities, and may not be designed to survive high winds intact, meaning they could be unsafe under certain conditions.


Last year the county designated my porch (under truss) as finished enclosed. I replaced the screening along the back with acrylic windows and tiled the floor. It is still unheated, unairconditioned, uninsulated, so I dont understand the change, and havent received an answer from the county. I wouldnt consider it living area as it is today, but consider it more useable, and valuable than a screened porch.

 

[Don Clark]

Bard...Fannie has no "requirement" to use ANSI

Show me where in the Fannie Mae guidelines where it says we have to use the ANSI standard? My state says what is local custom and practice. I will stick with that since I would defend myself before their jurisdiction.

 

[Laura Harper]

If it is finished to the quality of the home, with heat and electrical, I would consider it GLA, basically an addition. The reason being, many homes in my area have step downs over parts of the home that were built on slab versus basement.

If it is not, I would pull comps of home sales in the surrounding area and attempt to discern contributory value of the Florida Room, and adjust accordingly for an extra.

 

[Brad Ellis]

Don,

If your state says to do it that way I will not argue. Government directions will take precedence. But, most states do not specify this. Most rely upon USPAP alone. You know USPAP well.

My point here is that USPAP says recognized methods and techniques. IF the state specifies local custom, fine. However, IF it does NOT- as is the case in most- then we have only one recognized method/technique and that is ANSI.

As to Fannie, I do not have a copy of it and it is not in the selling guide that I can find; however, they published a letter when it was done saying that they had adopted this. Note their selling guide has not been fully updated and still conflicts a bit with their own more recent appraisal guide, so you will obviously be defensible,

Just worries me when we fall back upon what is defensible vs. what may not be as easily defensible but is still right. I would bet you dollars to doughnuts that citing ANSI as your source- even in your local markets- will be as defensible or even more so than "local custom". My reasoning here is that no one can really define local custom unless ALL, or at least the overwhelming majority of, particpants do exactly the same thing- and I'l just bethca that they do not. However, ANSI is a national technique and its developers included the home builders, Fannie and NAR. Following it produces consistent results- and again, absolutely NO ONE is saying one cannot assign the same value to stuff below grade or on another level IF that is what the market does.

I am frankly surprised that so many just dismiss this. It has saved my bacon many times over in arguments with LOs, borrowers, etc.

Brad

 

[DTB]

Don,

If your state says to do it that way I will not argue. Government directions will take precedence. But, most states do not specify this. Most rely upon USPAP alone. You know USPAP well.

My point here is that USPAP says recognized methods and techniques. IF the state specifies local custom, fine. However, IF it does NOT- as is the case in most- then we have only one recognized method/technique and that is ANSI.

As to Fannie, I do not have a copy of it and it is not in the selling guide that I can find; however, they published a letter when it was done saying that they had adopted this. Note their selling guide has not been fully updated and still conflicts a bit with their own more recent appraisal guide, so you will obviously be defensible,

Just worries me when we fall back upon what is defensible vs. what may not be as easily defensible but is still right. I would bet you dollars to doughnuts that citing ANSI as your source- even in your local markets- will be as defensible or even more so than "local custom". My reasoning here is that no one can really define local custom unless ALL, or at least the overwhelming majority of, particpants do exactly the same thing- and I'l just bethca that they do not. However, ANSI is a national technique and its developers included the home builders, Fannie and NAR. Following it produces consistent results- and again, absolutely NO ONE is saying one cannot assign the same value to stuff below grade or on another level IF that is what the market does.

I am frankly surprised that so many just dismiss this. It has saved my bacon many times over in arguments with LOs, borrowers, etc.

Brad

I agree it would be more consistent for your measurement of the SUBJECT.

Now that you've measured your SUBJECT with a fine toothed comb, how will you apply that comb to the COMPS?

This is where the inconsistency will come into play.

You know how inconsistent our public records are and try pulling permit info on 8 comps to get 3 decent ones. Looks like 3 weeks should turn out 1 report. LOL