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Housing Bubble Bursting?

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I do nothing but A paper and life is semi-good.

Then you ain't no '80's farmer!

Well, I almost depressed myself, writing my little rant. I was talking to the sour grapes posters. The choices are clear. No one is going to improve their own lot by causing trouble for others, unless, of course, that is your line of work (I'm from the government and I'm here to help):icon_smile:

Any of you disenfranchised postal workers: Of course, I'm not talking about you:icon_wink:

However, if you appraisers find yourself in an unhappy place, find a happy place.:shrug:
 
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NOW we got us a discussion...started w/Mr. Buck's comments!

"I believe there is far more risk for the individual appraiser accepting and completing the orders discussed here daily than taking a calculated risk with personal assets on a venture where you’ve done your homework."

I COULDN'T AGREE MORE! Whether it's personal opinion, perception, whatever...I COULDN'T AGREE MORE!

There are so many Appraisers complaining about their lot in life (especially on the Forum) that one should think alternative viewpoints, and creative ideas would be better received.

"This new paradigm business is hogwash."

Actually...the 'new paradigm' WAS fact. I think (no I'm certain) many markets are transitioning (CHANGING) into a new standard..."The Soft Landing."

"You can pretty much bank on greater regulatory oversight in the near future."

I agree, but I also think we'll see more creative options coming from the lending community in the near future.

"Mike S. seems to be referring to something different. If one is buying at market and plans on riding the equity elevator, then timing is dependent on holding period. If the holding period is 20 years, you're going to come out ahead. If the holding period is short, then depending on increases in equity is much more risky."

Actually, I think there are basically (very basically) three ways of investing;

#1. Buy & hold for the pot @ the end of the rainbow

#2. Buy for positive cash flow (harder & harder in many markets nowadays)

#3. Buy & flip (there are many different scenarios for this type of investing, and requires more talent, and understanding of the marketplace than #1 or #2).

I loved appraising, but grew to detest it's politics. I found it increasingly impossible to earn an honest living performing appraisals for mortgage purposes (the pressure grew to unacceptable levels)...but HEY...that's just me.

I find what I do now is much more gratifying, financially rewarding, and far less stressful than appraising. I thought some (like minded appraisers) might want to know how I did it, and share some ideas. I was a little taken aback by some of the reaction. I never anticipated the backlash & must apologize for my reaction to it.

-Mike
 
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I agree, but I also think we'll see more creative options coming from the lending community in the near future.

I'll throw one out there. Some lenders may model the process after ERC. To justify costs for consumer, they might allow the appraisal cost to be financed. The high buck programs already have the appraisal+ field review or 2 appraisals parameters.

If AMC's beat the fees passed on to the appraiser down much more, or keep them down, the remaining independents might consider forming alliances that offer lenders discounts if they order 2 appraisals from alliance members on a single property. Double the number of cookie cutter appraisals!

That would be a way to reward that practice, not to mention, keep the work within the alliance membership. Appraisersforum alliance? Naaa. Too much sour grapes on record:)

Mike S.: +1 on reasons for moving on to something else. Maybe I'll appraise when I retire, but not the way the industry is going at present. I'd rather fish or play tennis.
 
This paradigm is simply new ways of transferring credit risk. In the old days the risk transferrence was pretty simple, directly upon the depositors at Ye Olde Building & Loan. The lending officers at Ye Olde knew their borrowers, could drive out to Mr Borrower's homestead to scope out the collateral and could catch up on Mr Borrower's financial comings and goings from the gossip at the Elks Lodge.

Under the new paradigm, risk transference is way more complex and generally is cut up into teeny tiny chunks and offered up on Wall Street and gobbled up by pension funds, mutual funds, foreign governments and other institutional investors. This spreading of risk is not a new concept, I think Lloyds of London came up with it first in like 1600 or so.

On the surface, this is a fabulous system as spreading the risk lowers the cost for all, and dramatically increases the liquidity in the mortgage system. The only downside to the system is the buyer's of the risk are utterly reliant on third parties to gauge the risk they are buying. Whereas typical corporate equity and debt securities are only as good as the companies they are issued on; mortgage backed securities are only as good as the underlying loans in the package. Where corporations can be judged by the credibility of their financial statements, mortgage backed securities can be judged by the credibility of, what? Their average weighted FICO score and LTV? Where a company like Enron can pull the wool over the eyes of Wall Street, for a while, by the cunning and skill of highly educated financial pros who if nothing else have to stand behind what they sign off on; the mortgage industry only has layer upon layer of transient, nameless, undertrained paper jockeys who can do whatever then vanish into the wind.

I believe the upper management types in the mortgage world know full and well the (maybe) shakiness of the documentation in their files, speaking mostly of income docs and appraisals, but are confident that they are managing that risk appropriately through the use of FICO scoring and loan pricing. I don't believe the institutional investors have such an understanding. The great unknown is how these recently originated loan packages will age in an era of slowing prepayment speeds. Consider that the average life expectancy of a 30 year mortgage loan today is something like 30 months. 30 months is not a lot of time to go bad. In a rising rate environment, or in a little or no appreciation RE market, the average life will expand tremendously, maybe even back to the old 12 year standard. You WILL see default rates increase with those kind of lifespans.

What will the institutional investors do should default rates go beyond expectation? What will they do should they see shinanigans in the underlying loan packages? Dump mortgage backed securities and start playing the blame game I imagine. Most importantly, what would this sudden loss in liquidity do the mortgage industry and real estate market?

Creative new ways of analyzing income or making payments wouldn't mean much in such an environment.

Of course I could be very wrong in my assumptions regarding the amount of false information in mortgage documentation or the due dilligence that institutional investors or Wall Street analysts put forth in assessing these things but something Brad Ellis said a few pages back keeps coming back to me:

But, since you say our pronouncements are given no weight in the overall scheme of things, and since Wall St. keeps on buying the paper, I do not believe they are panicking. So, why should we?

Hey if nobody else is worrying why should I?
 
For an appraiser who knows how to work with the data, I think investing in RE is probably about the safest type on investing that can be done, whether the market is up or down. Unlike other markets, it's reasonably possible to know what's going on in the RE markets. However, the fact that a savvy pro can do it safely says nothing of relevance to the existence of unsustainable markets or the very real hazards those markets present to our economy. Who cares if an appraiser or a veteran broker can do it safely? Neither of those groups of insiders comprise 50% or 25% or 10% of the investors out there who are driving these markets.

As for how safe appraising is relative to investing or brokerage, I think that's a matter of opinion. Everyone's entitled to their own and more power to them. If a person can't make an honest living doing something then it probably is a good decision for them to move on. I've been appraising for 20 years working on assignments that are predominantly complex and yet I've never even gotten close to being exposed to a lawsuit. I made tons of money appraising when the markets were down back in the 90s, about the same as I made when the markets were up. All that changes for me is how much I have to turn away to maintain my workload and whether the assignments involve cleaning up after the messes made by others. I'm not particularly worried about my business. A down market will thin out 50% of the appraisers and 98% of the investors before it seriously cuts into my life.

What does worry me is the potential for damage to the appraisal profession that can occur - and many would say is occurring - as a result of good appraisers getting run off by the hacks instead of the other way around. I can do other things to make money, but I still like this job and the life it affords me and I really don't want to have to do those other things. When I see/hear appraisers being compared on an equal ethical basis with car salesmen that hurts - especially to the extent that it's true. It never used to be like that and it shouldn't be like that now. That's why it matters to me and that's what keeps me coming here.
 
Good post George!

I'm going to disagree with the following comment though, and then explain why.

"However, the fact that a savvy pro can do it safely says nothing of relevance to the existence of unsustainable markets or the very real hazards those markets present to our economy."

For me..."working with the data" involves a great deal of research.

I want to know what a State's Chief Demographer has to say about the short & long term future of a regions population. Additionally, I want to know how accurate they've been in the past (projected job growth, birth rates, in-migration, etc.).

I want to weigh that information in correlation with building permits, active listings [coming to market daily], pending sales [past & present], marketing time [past & present], and a mountain of other data & information (i.e., transportation department [future projects], study of 10 yr. urban growth plans, and the like.)

By so doing you learn things like; how many new jobs it takes to create demand for one new dwelling unit...etc. Dig enough & you begin to understand short term future demand, and the type of demand it brings with it [multi-family or SFR for instance].

Study enough information...long enough...and you begin to be able to predict (with some pretty good accuracy) what's MOST LIKELY to take place in any given region. Being able to predict whether an areas housing markets are sustainable, or unsustainable is KEY to success in my opinion...especially if you're simply riding the equity elevator.

What I see unfolding in some of these formerly blistering markets is far better described as a "Soft-Landing" scenario than a "Housing Bubble."

"When I see/hear appraisers being compared on an equal ethical basis with car salesmen that hurts - especially to the extent that it's true."

Bashing is alive & well in America. People seem under the mistaken impression that making someone look bad is the path to making themselves look good. I find it amusing though when the proverbial 'car salesmen' start bashing the proverbial 'car makers'. We've certainly no lack of 'ethics police' do we?

-Mike
 
My problem isn't so much with the "bash" because I am capable of recognizing that as a group we deserve the reputation we are making for ourselves, just like the attorneys and the car salesmen and the realty agents and the mortgage brokers. My problem is that it's justified to some extent and there's no good reason for us to have allowed ourselves to get to this.

I recognize that whining about the criticism doesn't change the fact that there wouldn't be any credible criticism if not for our own misdeeds.

As for how the landing is going to be we'll just have to wait and see, won't we? I've seen more foreclosure activity here in the last 3 months than in the 10 years preceding it. And things haven't even gotten interesting yet. I highly doubt that most of the losers in these transactions would characterize their landings as being soft.
 
It is unrealistic to think that the recent real estate mania was due to the normal demand for housing such as population increase or wealth increase as if all the sudden a huge number of people with lots of money migrated to US or all the sudden people got wealthy and started looking for their dream homes or just everyone got very high paying job with huge pension and became interested in buying homes. Although these factors, which are the natural cause for housing demand, may play partially in recent housing demand but the main factor for the housing mania in last 3-4 years were low interest rates both short and long terms and the availability of easy financing. These two factors alone created an artificial demand in housing and are going to be the ones, which turn the market to its normal or even below normal direction.
The upward movement of interest rates has already started and no body knows when it is going to stop. If it stops now, it would be a soft landing but if it keeps going up another 6 more month and long term rate gets to 7.5% or 8%, believe me, it is going to be real hard landing. The short-term interest rate has gone up for 15 times now and it may go up 3 more times. The prime rate which is tight to short rate is 7.75% now and it is going to be 9% when it stops. The long-term rates are on the upward movement as well. The average fixed 30 years jumbo rate is above 6.5% now and very soon it is going to be 7%. If it gets to 7.5-8%, 50% of homebuyers may pull back from the market. They simply cannot be qualified for homes that they want to buy. Compares these upcoming rates to 2-3% few years ago, it makes huge different. Problem with these rates is that you cannot study or predict them. You know them when you see them.
All you have to do now is to look at the inventory and number of sales of any regional MLS. It tells you everything you need to know that what is going on in the market.
 
but the main factor for the housing mania in last 3-4 years were low interest rates both short and long terms and the availability of easy financing. These two factors alone created an artificial demand in housing and are going to be the ones, which turn the market to its normal or even below normal direction.

And what level of interest rates will produce an "artificial" lack of demand?
 
rogerwatland said:
And what level of interest rates will produce an "artificial" lack of demand?
Nobody really knows. My personal guess is at around 8% long fixed rate but it is only an instict, no data to support it. We know it when we see it. It is going to be the same way that happened to the bubble market. Nobody really knew that it was going to get to that level. The Fed for sure didn’t intend to create that kind of market. They tried to get the economy out of recession but they went too far. So, they may go too far on opposite direction too. All I know is that the wind is blowing in different direction now. Am I wrong?
 
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