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How do you value Solar in a home appraisal?

Just using the rate and bill info the op has provided. It would appear that heir usage is twice the average usage in the State of Michigan. Their system is also twice as large as the average system. The OP states that their total monthly usage also includes the charging of an ev. The average ev driver uses approx 11.81kwh/day. That equals approx. 354kwh/mo. Which would appear to be approx. 25% of their average monthly usage. So now you have reduced the pool of possible buyers that would get the same savings as the OP is trying to sell
Savings are the same regardless of intentions. 11KW is not even close for anyone that commutes. Its closer to 25-40KW for EV or 16KW for a plug in hybrid. Assuming a standard 30min commute one way that is. Even without that it allows for welding in the garage, leaving a camper plugged in for people that visit, or just leaving the temperature at what ever you feel like without concern for the bill.. Theres alot more to it than only charging a car for commuting.

The market will decide the value I agree, but I can always list for 380k and see how it goes and hear feedback from potential buyers.
 
Savings are the same regardless of intentions. 11KW is not even close for anyone that commutes. Its closer to 25-40KW for EV or 16KW for a plug in hybrid. Assuming a standard 30min commute one way that is. Even without that it allows for welding in the garage, leaving a camper plugged in for people that visit, or just leaving the temperature at what ever you feel like without concern for the bill.. Theres alot more to it than only charging a car for commuting.

The market will decide the value I agree, but I can always list for 380k and see how it goes and hear feedback from potential buyers.
Went right over your head.
 
This thread is about finding the correct way to value paid off panels, not about 'la la land' as you put it. I assure you when I make a choice its backed by as many variables as I can find... Degradation was considered before the cost when choosing the panels. I do find the tone of your post funny so I appreciate that.
Let's rewind. You are a layperson insofar as appraising goes. You came here and asked us how we value this feature:

"I have a house Im planning to sell and I installed 16.8KW of solar on the house. Its bought and paid for which is a bit rare for panels now a days... My question is (preferable relatable to the Michigan market if its not universal) how do you value a paid for system? I have seen quotes online for 5-6k per KW of installed system in regards to home value, but is that the case (this is normally from solar friendly sites)? Is there some other metric that is used or standard to add that value when a comp doesnt exist?
The house is 100% electric and had a NET $0/m bill including charging a standard EV so there is definitely value there, but Im not sure how much or the logic behind it."

So this thread is not about you or anyone else teaching us how to do what we do. We're the people who do this appraising thing for a living. Not some solar salesman or some oil company executive or some biased political activist (in either direction), or even some consumer (like you). Everyone has an opinion and - in terms of what we are doing - they're all strictly subordinate to our observations of what the buyers and sellers do as a group.

We never asked you how you think we should value these systems. We are not unfamiliar with the availability of these calculators. But when even the studies produced by appraisers who advocate for these issues are showing that the market reactions to this feature in San Jose, CA are different than the value in Austin TX (both areas being studied because they have a strong political bias toward these issues) are showing different market reactions that is a result that doesn't surprise any appraiser who has run into solar during their normal course of business. Which is all of us in the major metros.

One other factor that we understand but which you apparently don't is that the market psychology for single family homes isn't entirely driven by logic and reasoning. "It's not a house, it's a home" is a talking point that the realtors use to considerable effect. The reason that selling point is effective is because people get emotionally involved with the values of their homes, just like they do with their cars and their boats and their kids accomplishments and all the other status symbols which often contribute to someone's sense of personal identity. That talking point doesn't get used in the marketing of any other property type because nobody envies me for owning a 10,000sf industrial or a 2,000sf storefront or a 40ac parcel of land or a 20-unit apartment building. THOSE buyers and sellers actually do act rationally, they do consider the dollars and cents. Not the interior decor or where the kitchen is in relation to the living room or the garage or what the test scores are in the schools.

So yeah, maybe buyers and sellers should act strictly according to the numbers. But in real life we commonly see that they don't. It's not never, but it's also not always.

----------------------
Another parallel in appraising that all appraisers understand is when a home has (for example) a built-in pool. The costs of building and operating a backyard pool are the same in a given region (Like southern Calif), but the same pool will have different contributory values in different neighborhoods and different pricing tiers. Within the same region. The money is the same but the returns are different. Tennis courts, equestrian features, workshops, additional garages, extreme kitchens, accessibility features for the disabled - there are a whole bunch of "atypical" features which appraisers run into in their work. In that regard there is nothing special about solar installs being atypical in some areas.

I live/work in California and my observations over the years is such that I can NEVER proceed off an assumption that there is a discernable value-add or what that number will be. Sometimes there is and sometimes there isn't, even with the systems that are fully owned. Sometimes there's a value-add when the system is leased and the property owner doesn't even own it. Some of the lenders tell us not to attribute value to a leased setup but that doesn't alter the point that if a bunch of the buyers are paying more because the install is complete it then that conduct speaks to what the buyers and sellers are doing, independent of what the lenders think they should be doing. And independent upon how those lenders make their lending decisions.

My point is that regardless of our past experience with this feature it becomes unprofessional for us to assume that (for example) a market area that was returning 25% of the costs last year will be doing the same this year. Or vice-versa with a market that's returning 110+% of the costs. Unless it's a neighborhood we frequent, we ALWAYS have to look at the buyer/seller behavior rather than to assume those actions. Even if we think we already know how it will work out.

You asked, we answered. We seek what the majority of the buyers and sellers in that particular neighborhood are actually doing. Not what the people who sell these systems think the buyers and sellers should be doing.
 
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The market will decide the value I agree, but I can always list for 380k and see how it goes and hear feedback from potential buyers.
Why stop there? You said that your install was about 2X normal. Why not increase the size to 5X normal and list it for $500K? I'm certain that with enough creative accounting you can justify the increased list price.

Since you obviously have your own opinion anchored in you head, just list the damn thing and get back to us on which method provides the closest number.

Proves us wrong....please. We'd like to have the input for future use.
 
A significant percentage of all listings get rejected in the market. Sometimes more than others. Conversely, under certain conditions some of the sales end up closing at prices that are higher than their listing.

With that said, anything is possible. Sometimes a seller will get lucky and find a unicorn buyer who will pay way more than anyone else will. And good for them. But that example doesn't speak to what can be considered the "most probable price", which by definition will be indicative of the many. Not the one.
 
who ever has solar panels should send their kids to dig the minerals for the next generation of so called do gooders... :ROFLMAO:
 
Why stop there? You said that your install was about 2X normal. Why not increase the size to 5X normal and list it for $500K? I'm certain that with enough creative accounting you can justify the increased list price.
From what I have been able to find. Michigan limites residential solar installation to 20Kw or near your annual usage. Whichever is lower. The OP has stated that they hard a difficult time getting their system approved. Which makes sense since it is approx twice as large as the typical installation. Without their ev charging included. Which from the OP's posts could be close to 50% of their annual usage. Their system would probably have ben limited to 12KW at the most. Not sure if the OP is on an actual "net metering" program of the DGP program. Since it appears that there are some utilities that are not subject to the DGP program. It is obvious that Michigan put limits on the size of residential solar installation to keep them from being primarily a profit mechanism. So let's say a non ev owner buys the home (high probability since there are only approx 45,000 evs registered in Michigan). Their annual usage will suddenly drop by about 50%. I am sure that will catch somebody's attention since the return power will surpass their annual usage by 100%
 
My assumption is that over time the demand for these installs will continue to increase in many regions. To the point that a property that doesn't have one will get penalized in the market for not having it, perhaps in excess of the cost of the install. That may not happen everywhere, but I expect movement in that direction for the foreseeable future. All it would take to change a lot of hearts and minds is if some sections of the electrical grid went dark for a few weeks. The locals with solar installs which are configured to operate on a freestanding basis would have power and everyone else wouldn't. The people who live in other locals would see that example and some of them would likely decide they don't want to take that risk.

It could happen......
 
Let's rewind. You are a layperson insofar as appraising goes. You came here and asked us how we value this feature:

"I have a house Im planning to sell and I installed 16.8KW of solar on the house. Its bought and paid for which is a bit rare for panels now a days... My question is (preferable relatable to the Michigan market if its not universal) how do you value a paid for system? I have seen quotes online for 5-6k per KW of installed system in regards to home value, but is that the case (this is normally from solar friendly sites)? Is there some other metric that is used or standard to add that value when a comp doesnt exist?
The house is 100% electric and had a NET $0/m bill including charging a standard EV so there is definitely value there, but Im not sure how much or the logic behind it."

So this thread is not about you or anyone else teaching us how to do what we do. We're the people who do this appraising thing for a living. Not some solar salesman or some oil company executive or some biased political activist (in either direction), or even some consumer (like you). Everyone has an opinion and - in terms of what we are doing - they're all strictly subordinate to our observations of what the buyers and sellers do as a group.

We never asked you how you think we should value these systems. We are not unfamiliar with the availability of these calculators. But when even the studies produced by appraisers who advocate for these issues are showing that the market reactions to this feature in San Jose, CA are different than the value in Austin TX (both areas being studied because they have a strong political bias toward these issues) are showing different market reactions that is a result that doesn't surprise any appraiser who has run into solar during their normal course of business. Which is all of us in the major metros.

One other factor that we understand but which you apparently don't is that the market psychology for single family homes isn't entirely driven by logic and reasoning. "It's not a house, it's a home" is a talking point that the realtors use to considerable effect. The reason that selling point is effective is because people get emotionally involved with the values of their homes, just like they do with their cars and their boats and their kids accomplishments and all the other status symbols which often contribute to someone's sense of personal identity. That talking point doesn't get used in the marketing of any other property type because nobody envies me for owning a 10,000sf industrial or a 2,000sf storefront or a 40ac parcel of land or a 20-unit apartment building. THOSE buyers and sellers actually do act rationally, they do consider the dollars and cents. Not the interior decor or where the kitchen is in relation to the living room or the garage or what the test scores are in the schools.

So yeah, maybe buyers and sellers should act strictly according to the numbers. But in real life we commonly see that they don't. It's not never, but it's also not always.

----------------------
Another parallel in appraising that all appraisers understand is when a home has (for example) a built-in pool. The costs of building and operating a backyard pool are the same in a given region (Like southern Calif), but the same pool will have different contributory values in different neighborhoods and different pricing tiers. Within the same region. The money is the same but the returns are different. Tennis courts, equestrian features, workshops, additional garages, extreme kitchens, accessibility features for the disabled - there are a whole bunch of "atypical" features which appraisers run into in their work. In that regard there is nothing special about solar installs being atypical in some areas.

I live/work in California and my observations over the years is such that I can NEVER proceed off an assumption that there is a discernable value-add or what that number will be. Sometimes there is and sometimes there isn't, even with the systems that are fully owned. Sometimes there's a value-add when the system is leased and the property owner doesn't even own it. Some of the lenders tell us not to attribute value to a leased setup but that doesn't alter the point that if a bunch of the buyers are paying more because the install is complete it then that conduct speaks to what the buyers and sellers are doing, independent of what the lenders think they should be doing. And independent upon how those lenders make their lending decisions.

My point is that regardless of our past experience with this feature it becomes unprofessional for us to assume that (for example) a market area that was returning 25% of the costs last year will be doing the same this year. Or vice-versa with a market that's returning 110+% of the costs. Unless it's a neighborhood we frequent, we ALWAYS have to look at the buyer/seller behavior rather than to assume those actions. Even if we think we already know how it will work out.

You asked, we answered. We seek what the majority of the buyers and sellers in that particular neighborhood are actually doing. Not what the people who sell these systems think the buyers and sellers should be doing.
I get that, not saying I know more about appraisals than an appraisers... just that there were 3 different methods used and it seems like the real answer is 'it depends' which is frustrating as that doesnt make sense to me.

I dont sell systems btw. Not really sure where that part came from unless you mean to say thats just not a part of your job. Saying so implies to me that you think I do, but who knows text doesnt really show intent as well as talking.


Why stop there? You said that your install was about 2X normal. Why not increase the size to 5X normal and list it for $500K? I'm certain that with enough creative accounting you can justify the increased list price.

Since you obviously have your own opinion anchored in you head, just list the damn thing and get back to us on which method provides the closest number.

Proves us wrong....please. We'd like to have the input for future use.
That is a fair point and I agree theres a limit. I guess I see the limit at NET 0. Even then DSCR loans for the property based on income (they are basically commercial loans for houses at or under 5 units) it would yield some value as its treated like a commercial product. Obviously theres a limit, but the idea behind using a higher than average (7KW) system is because that wouldnt cover the 100% of the bill in extreme situations (super cold or super hot months) and I wanted to make sure I baked the degradation into the sizing so its not an issue for the lifetime of the panels. It will always be Net 0.

From what I have been able to find. Michigan limites residential solar installation to 20Kw or near your annual usage. Whichever is lower. The OP has stated that they hard a difficult time getting their system approved. Which makes sense since it is approx twice as large as the typical installation. Without their ev charging included. Which from the OP's posts could be close to 50% of their annual usage. Their system would probably have ben limited to 12KW at the most. Not sure if the OP is on an actual "net metering" program of the DGP program. Since it appears that there are some utilities that are not subject to the DGP program. It is obvious that Michigan put limits on the size of residential solar installation to keep them from being primarily a profit mechanism. So let's say a non ev owner buys the home (high probability since there are only approx 45,000 evs registered in Michigan). Their annual usage will suddenly drop by about 50%. I am sure that will catch somebody's attention since the return power will surpass their annual usage by 100%
Yes its NET not DGP. It doesnt matter if its more as they pay out so little you will not be running to the bank with a check for more than 200 at the end of the year. It would be 50% drop IF I didnt work from home. I am not an average commuter.

Went right over your head.
I guess it did, not sure what the point was other than the concern about excess generation? The value proposition is over the initial investment from what I have seen on this thread. How much is the question and process to assess. PVvalue.com does provide an estimation as others have said, but its 100% income approach based which as you said can not be used for Fannie/Freddie.


My assumption is that over time the demand for these installs will continue to increase in many regions. To the point that a property that doesn't have one will get penalized in the market for not having it, perhaps in excess of the cost of the install. That may not happen everywhere, but I expect movement in that direction for the foreseeable future. All it would take to change a lot of hearts and minds is if some sections of the electrical grid went dark for a few weeks. The locals with solar installs which are configured to operate on a freestanding basis would have power and everyone else wouldn't. The people who live in other locals would see that example and some of them would likely decide they don't want to take that risk.

It could happen......
True, Im left in a bit of limbo until I find out essentially. I will report back once I have an answer that is specific to my area!
 
just that there were 3 different methods used and it seems like the real answer is 'it depends' which is frustrating as that doesnt make sense to me.
The sales comparison approach required for most residential appraisals is to determine market reaction to the various features of a home. The major issue I can see with trying to determine actual market reaction to your system is it's size. Will be difficult to determine reaction without similar systems to compare
 
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