Just learned VA Appraiser never came to house!

[heathpack]

We are in the process of buying a house using VA loan-40 day close currently scheduled for 7/1. An appraiser came to house on 6/2. We heard from lender on 6/10. Appraised value was $40,000 under negotiated sale price. Two recent comps were not used in favor of older ones. Lender requested appraiser take a 2nd look, which he said he would do the next day. At noon, lender called him & appraiser "was working on it." At 6pm, appraiser called lender to say he couldn't proceed with the 2nd look until he had a formal request from lender & that he (appraiser) was going out of town until 6/22 and 2nd look would be done after that. This has caused a large ruckus in ability to get the loan completed on time and loan & appraisal contingencies removed on schedule. We renegotiated the price with seller, who argeed to slightly lower price. We removed the contingencies and will pay the difference between the appraised price and loan price as downpayment. Unfortunately we've had to do all this without having final appraisal. But we do still have everything on track for July 1 close or thereabouts.

Today we learned that appraiser (Mr. X) who came to the house is not the appraiser (Mr. Z) who generated/signed the report. We are confident that the appraiser of record has not been to the property. Both are from another county 60-75 minutes away. The house is vacant (owned by an investment group) and the only access is through the realtors involved.

We do not know what the house is actually worth but are confident enough to proceed with the sale, putting $35,000 down rather than the $15,000 we expected to. However, we'd much prefer to remain liquid with extra $20,000.

Lender is telling us not to rock the boat and while we disagree with his reasoning, we do want this transaction to close. We have an excellent interest rate locked in, a great house, and a market that's on-fire. Sellers had 4 offers on this house, and the 4 previous houses we made offers on had a total of 27 offers on them. Don't make us go back out there, please! If we push for new appraisal now, we will not close on time & will have an interest rate 0.5 percent higher at least, plus the sellers might just walk away as they could easily sell the house again in a weekend for the price we have now all agreed to.

We are thinking of proceeding thus:
1. Pay OOP for a new appraisal from a good local appraiser, not involving lender, just so that we know what house is worth.
2. If house appraises similar to current appraisal, drop the matter other than reporting the conduct of Mr. X & Z to the state licensing board & the VA. After the house closes, of course.
3. If house appraises in the range we thought it would, consider legal remedies after closing to recoup our extra downpayment.

Is this a rational plan?
Do most appraisers have enough assets/insurance to cover something like this?
Can I find out if Mr. X who actually came to the house a VA-approved appraiser?

Thanks,
Heathpack

 

[Don Clark]

I sduggest you contact the VA Regional office nearest you:

http://www2.VA.gov/directory/guide/region.asp?ID=1053

If what you claim is true, the VA Appraiser has a lot to answer for. I am referring to who actually did the inspection, not the value. No one except the assigned VA appraiser can do the inspection and appraisal for the VA. The VA is the Client, not the lender.

 

[Ken B]

There were four offers, including yours, but the seller agreed to renegotiate your contract for a lower price? Hmm.

A VA appraiser is not permitted to speak with anyone regarding value except the LAPP underwriter, Staff Appraisal Reviewer, or VA. Reconsiderations of value must be submitted in writing along with the supporting documentation requested to be considered by the appraiser in support of the reconsideration. Yet the lender says they called the appraiser and the appraiser said he would "look into it." And the lender is suggesting that you not "rock the boat." Hmm.

Someone says that the appraiser who visited the property is not the VA appraiser, who is the only person permitted to sign a VA appraisal. But this was not a problem until there was a "problem." Hmm.

So, because the appraisal was less than the contract price and you were able to renegotiate the contract, thus actually paying less for the property, you are upset at the appraiser. Hmm.

In a situation of "he said, she said", the appraiser is the only with no bias or interest regarding the outcome of this transaction. Hmm.

And you want to sue an appraiser because someone else may have a different opinion regarding the property. Not that factual information was incorrect. Insurance that appraisers carry is called "Errors and Omissions" insurance. Not "difference of opinion" insurance.

Things that make you want to go "Hmm."

 

[heathpack]

Seller reduced price by 1% of negotiated price-- not a large amount and it was likely worth this much to them to close on time and move on. The fact that the seller is getting less for the house than previously agreed-upon is indeed causing us a ethical dilemma, as now we now know appraisal is wonky. However, we did not know that when we renegotiated with the seller and we acted in good faith at the time.

I am not sure who is supposed to talk to who- lender is only person that has talked to appraiser. Whoever it is that needs to request the 2nd look in writing has now done so-- this is I believe the underwriter but I am not sure.

Mr. X came to property and introduced himself as Mr. X. Mr. Z provided the written report and signed it as Mr. Z. Mr. X is a grey-haired older gentleman (according to our realtor who let him in the house). Mr. Z is a young dark-haired genetleman (according to his photo on his website). There's really no "he said/she said" to it. These are different people.

We do not know if factual information in appraisal is correct and we would like to find out. We would only consider legal action if appraiser failed to come to the house and as a result an inaccurate apprasial ensued.

I do agree with you that this entire thing seems very dicey and underhanded. We are in a real pickle over it. It would have been much better for all involved if the appraiser had simply come to the house and seen it when doing the appraisal, which is I believe a very minimal expectation.

But thanks so much for your input-- the time you took to respond is very much appreciated.

H

 

[Webbed Feet]

How to tell a buyer is in a feeding frenzy .

We are in the process of buying a house using VA loan-40 day close currently scheduled for 7/1. An appraiser came to house on 6/2. We heard from lender on 6/10. Appraised value was $40,000 under negotiated sale price. Two recent comps were not used in favor of older ones.

Ok, we need to break this up. First thing, different "Sales" are not neccessarily different "Comps." There is a rule you need to comprehend. The seller(s), the buyer(s), even the lender, all get to pick out the subject to be appraised. The appraiser gets to select the comps! ... End of story. If you don't like the comps the appraiser selected, everybody has an opinion, and the VA has a process for that. Reading ahead.... why is the VA process being circumvented? As Ken B said... Hmmmmmmm.

Lender requested appraiser take a 2nd look, which he said he would do the next day. At noon, lender called him & appraiser "was working on it." At 6pm, appraiser called lender to say he couldn't proceed with the 2nd look until he had a formal request from lender & that he (appraiser) was going out of town until 6/22 and 2nd look would be done after that.

Stop again. I am going to take the above to be a bunch of second or third hand information that isn't exactly a signed affidavit out the the appraiser regarding the sequence of events. Little fact my friend, people involved in real estate transactions all love to blame "the appraiser" because it is a lovely way to put off buyers and sellers when those other people want to put them off. Perhaps you should not be so confident the people telling you the above have relayed everything the way it actually happened.

This has caused a large ruckus in ability to get the loan completed on time and loan & appraisal contingencies removed on schedule. We renegotiated the price with seller, who argeed to slightly lower price. We removed the contingencies and will pay the difference between the appraised price and loan price as downpayment. Unfortunately we've had to do all this without having final appraisal. But we do still have everything on track for July 1 close or thereabouts.

Nobody, including the appraiser, forced any of you to do what you have done. And contrary to your post, you DO have the "final appraisal," you just don't like it and want it revised or altered to suit your needs!

Today we learned that appraiser (Mr. X) who came to the house is not the appraiser (Mr. Z) who generated/signed the report. We are confident that the appraiser of record has not been to the property. Both are from another county 60-75 minutes away. The house is vacant (owned by an investment group) and the only access is through the realtors involved.

The distance, or other county, has nothing to do with much of anything. However, if your source is accurate, and the appraiser on the VA roster did not inspect that house, then you have a real issue. However, again I pitch in with Ken B on this one. It's funny how people don't seem to research or care about this one as long as they all get the "values" that they want to make their deals work. Regardless, if what you say is true, there is an issue.

We do not know what the house is actually worth................

Yes you do. You shopped the market right? You offered, the seller accepted, the two of you renegociated... How is that you not knowing what the property is worth? ..

Lender is telling us not to rock the boat and while we disagree with his reasoning, we do want this transaction to close. We have an excellent interest rate locked in, a great house, and a market that's on-fire. Sellers had 4 offers on this house, and the 4 previous houses we made offers on had a total of 27 offers on them. Don't make us go back out there, please! If we push for new appraisal now, we will not close on time & will have an interest rate 0.5 percent higher at least, plus the sellers might just walk away as they could easily sell the house again in a weekend for the price we have now all agreed to.

Again, none of us are making you do anything. Perhaps the REAL issue here all started with real estate brokers that failed to warn the buyers about agreeing to too short of a anticipated closing date! Maybe if everyone stopped planning on everything going perfectly, real estate transactions would be less stressful for everybody.

We are thinking of proceeding thus:
1. Pay OOP for a new appraisal from a good local appraiser, not involving lender, just so that we know what house is worth.
2. If house appraises similar to current appraisal, drop the matter other than reporting the conduct of Mr. X & Z to the state licensing board & the VA. After the house closes, of course.
3. If house appraises in the range we thought it would, consider legal remedies after closing to recoup our extra downpayment.

Is this a rational plan?
Do most appraisers have enough assets/insurance to cover something like this?
Can I find out if Mr. X who actually came to the house a VA-approved appraiser?

Thanks,
Heathpack

1) Why? You've decided to proceed with the purchase anyway. What does someone else's opinion of value matter at this point?

2) That doesn't sound much like dropping the matter.

3) Explain how you "lost" the money? Nobody stole it from you, it's not lost, it's part of your purchase. Who forced you to proceed with the purchase? Consider away!! Get a good lawyer.

Question A) Can't tell you

Question B) Cover what? You doing something you decided to do? Can't tell you.

Question C) Assuming there was a way to postively identify the person, you might try calling the VA.

 

[heathpack]

I sduggest you contact the VA Regional office nearest you:

http://www2.VA.gov/directory/guide/region.asp?ID=1053

If what you claim is true, the VA Appraiser has a lot to answer for. I am referring to who actually did the inspection, not the value. No one except the assigned VA appraiser can do the inspection and appraisal for the VA. The VA is the Client, not the lender.

Thanks. Is the person who physically came to the house considered the "appraiser?" Not the guy who writes up the report? Will the VA tell me whether both of these individuals are VA-approved apprasiers?

H

 

[jlabauve]

How did you learn that the person who inspected the property was not the VA appraiser?

 

[heathpack]

How did you learn that the person who inspected the property was not the VA appraiser?

Person that came to the house introduced himself as Mr. X. Also called realtor in advance and identified himself as Mr. X and gave realtor his email, part of which contains the phrase "mr.X."

Lender got an appraisal signed by Mr. Z.

Realtor contacted lender yesterday to make sure the formal review of the appraisal had been ordered and sent to Mr. X and copied me on the email. Lender responded "yes, formal review has been ordered but the appraiser's name is not Mr. X."

I called lender and that is when I learned Mr. Z's name.

Just to clarify, it is possible they are both VA appraisers. But only one of them came to the house.

I have requested a copy of the written appraisal so that I can verify all of this myself.

H

 

[Ken B]

VA appraisers are assigned on a rotational basis and the assigned appraiser MUST personally inspect the subject and comparable properties.

IF the assigned VA appraiser did not personally inspect the subject, that is a major problem and should be reported the VA regional loan center. The appraiser could very well be removed from the panel.

HOWEVER, at this point, all we know is that someone, who may not be the assigned appraiser, visited the property. What we don't know is if the person who visited the property was even at the property for the appraisal purposes. Was a home inspection performed? It is not uncommon for an appraiser to visit a property to be told that another appraiser has already been at the property. Further inquiry generally revealed that the other person was a home inspector or a surveyor or someone else.

Was the home on a lock box and might the appraiser have used his lock box key to enter the property? Sometimes a combo box is placed on a property. Agents have been known to place combos and gate codes in non-public portions of listings. I routinely used a lock box key to access a vacant property, often without notifying the agent that I would be doing so. I would leave a business card at the property, although there were probably occasions I forgot to do so. I might call the agent, who might be unavailable, whereupon I would advise the person answering who I was and what I was doing and ask if there was someone else to help me. Sometimes the duty agent/receptionist/whoever I was talking to COULD give me the information I needed and the agent might never be aware when and if I had been to the property.

There are too many unknowns right now to throw darts at the appraiser. However, if it can be definitely ascertained that the assigned appraiser had someone else inspect the property in his place, yes, that is a problem and it needs to be reported to VA.

 

[heathpack]

Ok, we need to break this up. First thing, different "Sales" are not neccessarily different "Comps." There is a rule you need to comprehend. The seller(s), the buyer(s), even the lender, all get to pick out the subject to be appraised. The appraiser gets to select the comps! ... End of story. If you don't like the comps the appraiser selected, everybody has an opinion, and the VA has a process for that. Reading ahead.... why is the VA process being circumvented? As Ken B said... Hmmmmmmm.



Stop again. I am going to take the above to be a bunch of second or third hand information that isn't exactly a signed affidavit out the the appraiser regarding the sequence of events. Little fact my friend, people involved in real estate transactions all love to blame "the appraiser" because it is a lovely way to put off buyers and sellers when those other people want to put them off. Perhaps you should not be so confident the people telling you the above have relayed everything the way it actually happened.



Nobody, including the appraiser, forced any of you to do what you have done. And contrary to your post, you DO have the "final appraisal," you just don't like it and want it revised or altered to suit your needs!



The distance, or other county, has nothing to do with much of anything. However, if your source is accurate, and the appraiser on the VA roster did not inspect that house, then you have a real issue. However, again I pitch in with Ken B on this one. It's funny how people don't seem to research or care about this one as long as they all get the "values" that they want to make their deals work. Regardless, if what you say is true, there is an issue.



Yes you do. You shopped the market right? You offered, the seller accepted, the two of you renegociated... How is that you not knowing what the property is worth? ..



Again, none of us are making you do anything. Perhaps the REAL issue here all started with real estate brokers that failed to warn the buyers about agreeing to too short of a anticipated closing date! Maybe if everyone stopped planning on everything going perfectly, real estate transactions would be less stressful for everybody.

[qoute]

We are thinking of proceeding thus:
1. Pay OOP for a new appraisal from a good local appraiser, not involving lender, just so that we know what house is worth.
2. If house appraises similar to current appraisal, drop the matter other than reporting the conduct of Mr. X & Z to the state licensing board & the VA. After the house closes, of course.
3. If house appraises in the range we thought it would, consider legal remedies after closing to recoup our extra downpayment.

Is this a rational plan?
Do most appraisers have enough assets/insurance to cover something like this?
Can I find out if Mr. X who actually came to the house a VA-approved appraiser?

Thanks,
Heathpack

1) Why? You've decided to proceed with the purchase anyway. What does someone else's opinion of value matter at this point?

2) That doesn't sound much like dropping the matter.

3) Explain how you "lost" the money? Nobody stole it from you, it's not lost, it's part of your purchase. Who forced you to proceed with the purchase? Consider away!! Get a good lawyer.

Question A) Can't tell you

Question B) Cover what? You doing something you decided to do? Can't tell you.

Question C) Assuming there was a way to postively identify the person, you might try calling the VA.[/quote]

Are we circumventing the VA process? Are we supposed to be doing something different than having the lender or underwriter or whoever it is formally ask the appraiser to re-assess? Or do you just mean we are circumventing the process by not reporting this all before the close date?

When I say that we don't know the value of the house, we are referring to the appraised value. Obviously we think we have a pretty good idea of real estate value, as we are willing to pay $35,000 over the appraised value.

Our idea with getting an independant appraisal is to find out if our current appraisal is indeed way off. If it is, we can certainly argue that we are out financially because we take a liquid asset (cash) and covert it to an illiquid asset (real estate). This is obviously a question for our lawyer, who is indeed very good!


I really appreciate the time every one has taken to reply. I am not a sue-happy nutcase and we will not proceed unless all the facts are verified. We will also do not take lightly the notion of proceeding with action that will harm someone's ability to earn a living.

H