Knee walls in basement-how do you handle these?

[prasercat]

There is the rule to measure square footage from the exterior of a detached single family home. However, interior Fireplaces that take up interior space, are subtracted from footage. If I extrapolate the logic behind removing Fireplaces to living area square footage, then a basement knee wall should then be subtracted; however, the logic behind the first rule indicates I should ignore it.

I think it is common to ignore the fact that basement walls are thicker than GLA, since there is first the basement concrete wall thickness combined with an interior framing and insulation, which together makes the basement level smaller than the GLA above, even if they occupy the same footprint; however, I don't think it is common to account for this difference, so using this logic, knee walls would be ignored.

I've been conflicted regarding this concept for a very, very long time- any opinions. I suspect this is being handled in different ways by different appraisers. My opinion, is that it is more proper to ignore them, otherwise, we would have to account for the thicker basement concrete walls that occur when they function as both a retaining wall for a hillside and a basement wall and which only typically affects a part of the basement. I think it goes down the path of "thinking too much".

 

[Michigan CG]

..........However, interior Fireplaces that take up interior space, are subtracted from footage.

No they are not. See ANSI standards.

..........then a basement knee wall should then be subtracted; however, the logic behind the first rule indicates I should ignore it..........

Basements are not GLA ......apples, oranges. Most appraisers measure basements based on the foundation. A home with GLA of 1,500 SF and a full basement has a basement area of 1,500 SF. Basement finish is based on measurements of the finished area.

I don't think it is common to account for this difference, so using this logic, knee walls would be ignored.

Correct.

I think it goes down the path of "thinking too much".

I would agree with that.

 

[prasercat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by prasercat
..........However, interior Fireplaces that take up interior space, are subtracted from footage.

No they are not. See ANSI .

I was taught to subtract, just like bay windows or pop-outs with window seats, where they are permanent or when the pop out only goes down to the seat or other distance that is not floor level. I didn't realize ANZI addressed this - That would certainly speed up some inspections to ignore those interior fireplaces (the exterior one's were easy to ignore). I'm glad that was your answer with Knee Walls, since I was taught to subtract them, but later I decided it wasn't necessary or logically consistent with other measuring practices.

 

[Mike Kennedy]

"The ANSI standards base floor area calculations on the exterior dimensions of the building at each floor level, and include all interior walls and voids. For attached units, the outside dimension is the center line of the common walls. Internal room dimensions aren’t used in this system of measuring.
The ANSI standards define "finished area" as “an enclosed area in a house suitable for year-round use, embodying walls, floors, and ceilings that are similar to the rest of the house.” Measurements must be taken to the nearest inch or tenth of a foot, and floor area must be reported to the nearest square foot. Garages are specifically excluded.

How to Measure a House
Always start by measuring the outside of the house.
Begin measuring from any corner and work your way around the house. Move counter-clockwise so the numbers on your tape will be right-side-up.

• Measure the exterior of the house to the nearest inch or tenth of an inch. Measure from the exterior face of the walls. Include any features that are on the same level as the floor, such as chimneys and bay windows. Do not include the thickness of any corner trim pieces or greenhouse windows that don’t have a corresponding floor level. Draw a separate floor plan for each level in the house. Don't assume that each floor is identical. Check for floors that overhang or are recessed. .

Basements and Below-Grade Floor Areas
The ANSI standards make a strong distinction between above-grade and below-grade floor area. The above-grade floor area is the sum of all finished square footage which is entirely above ground level. The below-grade floor area includes spaces which are wholly or partly below ground level.

Disregard the old rules of thumb that allow you to include below-grade areas if they are less than five feet below grade, or if less than half the area is below grade. If the house has any areas below the natural grade, measure that whole level separately. Even if the below-grade areas are fully finished, they are not part of the finished floor area according to ANSI standards."

 

[Peter LeQuire]

The basement is measured from its outside surfaces, just like above grade areas. It's also why, when measuring the upper level of a house in which the upper level is different from that of the main level (as in a cape COD or a one and one-half story house), and it isn't possible to walk (or fly) around that upper story to measure it, the inside is measured and the thickness of the walls (from the interior surface to the outside face of the framing) is added to the inside measurement.

It was 'splained to me this way: ask a builder what he builds.

 

[The Sheriff]

Interesting how ANSI looks at a tri-level. I've never included the lower portion of the tri-level in the basement area of the grid. It is not common for my market, nor have I seen it done by any other appraiser (maybe every appraiser is a dolt and has been doing it incorrectly for years around here).

 

[prasercat]

"

The ANSI standards define "finished area" as “an enclosed area in a house suitable for year-round use, embodying walls, floors, and ceilings that are similar to the rest of the house.”
Include any features that are on the same level as the floor, such as chimneys and bay windows. Basements and Below-Grade Floor Areas

The ANSI standards make a strong distinction between above-grade and below-grade floor area. The above-grade floor area is the sum of all finished square footage which is entirely above ground level. The below-grade floor area includes spaces which are wholly or partly below ground level.
quote]

The part concerning "Chimneys" was worded poorly and is confusing or vague. When I said exterior fireplaces, I meant "mounted on the exterior" such that, it doesn't take up interior space. Some fireplaces are both on the interior and exterior and other's are just on the interior or actually not even touching an exterior wall - they may even be in the center of a room. The wording in this rule seems to imply that I need to include the brick "hearth" that projects out of the above grade area wall as though a hearth is a living area. It certainly isn't consistent with the first rule which states it must be a "finished area with ceilings similar to the rest of the house".

Another interesting issue is the home I'm appraising right now, where the knee wall occurs on the first floor, the first floor has a crawl space for its entire area and then there is a second floor. It resembles a two story home built into a slightly raised area on on side of the house; however, it also resembles a raised ranch with a non-slab basement (crawl space).

I think we all know that there are "grey areas" and their can be a conflict between what ANSI recommends and how the market specific to a particular property perceives such properties. Since a market value is based upon market perception primarily, I sometimes think it is appropriate to deviate from ANSI in such cases.

I think I will continue to not include fireplaces in an area when they project out of the wall (unless the hearth is 7' tall and the floor level of the hearth is the same level as the floor level) - I have seen some grand rock hearths that had close to a six foot arched opening at center. I will now also not subtract them if they are on the interior (where they take up floor space). I will continue to not include knee walls but not feel conflicted anymore when I do, given your input, Mike, and ANSI.

 

[prasercat]

Interesting how ANSI looks at a tri-level. I've never included the lower portion of the tri-level in the basement area of the grid. It is not common for my market, nor have I seen it done by any other appraiser (maybe every appraiser is a dolt and has been doing it incorrectly for years around here).

There is typically (not always) a basement level that is partly garden level, which then steps down to a fully submerged basement level. Realtors in my area always included the garden level portion in to the GLA. I always use the tax records to straighten this out on the grid.

Since the basement is now a hybrid between half submerged and fully submerged, I do a differential adjustment on the functional utility line between full garden level, fully submerged or daylight walkout basements in relation to the subject, using the subject basement type as the default basement type for adjustment criteria, this way the functional utility line corrects the basement adjustments made above for different basements.

I have also seen other degrees of elevation for tri-levels, all the way to having what is normally the garden level actually elevated at the rear with a deck and what is normally fully submerged being a full daylight walkout basement to patio on rear grade. Each of which I handle differently.

Mountain markets normally have more daylight portions and often walkout basements due to sloping topography. Also, the freeze line requires that foundation wall must go down about 6 to 8 feet, depending upon location, so it only costs a bit more to do a full basement and add much more potential living area, flexibility and potential utility to the home. I consider daylight walkout basements to be basements; however, they are valued differently than more submerged counterparts. Some rare structures are stepped up a hillside, so there is no below grade areas (the floors step up before getting submerged), then I believe the market considers this all GLA.