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living quarters over garages

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"Below Grade" does not refer to below the elevation, but lower grade (quality)..

I never even thought about that. I just assumed, because "Below Grade" is on the form in the basement section, that it meant rooms below, even slightly, the ground. Does your meaning of "below grade" apply to just your post? Or is that what is meant by "below grade" on the form? If the latter, Is it your interpretation of the form? Or did you read it somewhere?
 
Assuming they are not occupied:

Call them "Living Quarters" or "An Apartment", and the doggy doo will hit the fan with the UW.

Call them "Guest Quarters" and the UW will be happy forever.
 
@ Terrel - Are you saying that you don't understand comparing functionality? I find that hard to believe, but I will try to be a little clearer: I am saying that the upper level (with the kitchen, bedroom, bath, and living room) is functionally comparable to the "main" level on just about every other house out here. I am also saying that the lower level (with 0% finish, and that can be used for storage, basement, or garage) is functionally comparable to a basement. It does not matter if there are concrete walls or if the back wall is below grade ... what matters is there is no living area on this "main" level.

As I said in my previous post, I had 1 comp for the most recent appraisal, and that comp had the highest sale price of all the "similar" comps. I am uncomfortable making up a negative adjustment for "unconventional construction" when there is so much unconventional construction out here (even if most of it is unconventional in different ways ;) ).

"Below Grade" does not refer to below the elevation, but lower grade (quality)..
That's an interesting take on it, but according to a quick search on HUD.gov, every reference to "below grade" seemed to refer to the more common "underground" definition. Do you have a source for your definition?

@ Joe Booth - In my county, possibly the whole state, if you are outside of city limits you don't need a building permit. (You do need a septic permit and an electric permit.) I talked with the assessors about these homes. They call them "Style 14", or "Other", and use the cost approach on them. They themselves code the lower level as "basement" and the upper level as the first floor, which is where I got the idea.

@ Mztk1 - I guess they do sort of sound like stilt houses. You said you had one. What did you do?

@ Richard Carlsen - Thanks for the advice! Unfortunately, these are occupied and also the only building. None of these even had sheds! Would you still call them "guest quarters" in that scenario?
 
@ Richard Carlsen - Thanks for the advice! Unfortunately, these are occupied and also the only building. None of these even had sheds! Would you still call them "guest quarters" in that scenario?

Sorry. I misunderstood. I thought there was additional living quarters over the garage.

I am finishing an FHA right now that started as a 26 x 26 garage with an upper level added at construction for use as a summer house. So you have a 676 SF 2 stall garage and a 676 4/2/1 house above. Well, at some point they needed additional room so they added a spiral stair and finished off the lower garage into living space. Now we have an 8/3/2 with 1352 SF of space and a bunch of functional for non-typical floor plan and design. Plus the roof has about a 12 degree pitch.

Of course there are no comps but what would you expect up here? I am concentrating on sq footage and age as the best market indicators. All of my comps have 3 bedrooms and at least 1.5 baths.
 
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Is it your interpretation of the form?
The form is not interpertable according to fannie which is why it is so ridiculous. But situationally, yes. Fannie allows two lines for "Basement and Finished areas below grade". In my opinion, that relates to A - Basement and B - areas that are below grade..quality level. So if Basement = below grade the form is redundant. why have 2 lines? I contend that it serves to allow you to adjust for basements (fin or unfin) and any other area that is of a lesser quality or lower elevation.

Section 405.06 – Gross Living Area
the appraiser should report the basement or other partially below-grade areas separately and make appropriate adjustments for them on the "basement and finished areas below-grade" line in the "sales comparison analysis" grid. To assure consistency in the sales comparison analysis, the appraiser generally should compare above-grade areas to above-grade areas and below-grade areas to below-grade areas. The appraiser may deviate from this approach if the style of the subject property or any of the comparables does not lend itself to such comparisons. However, in such instances, he or she must explain the reason for the deviation and clearly describe the comparisons that were made.
That is Fannie's definition...please note. In some split and tri- level designs you literally would have the idiotic situation develop where the "GLA" is 100 SF or less, whereas the "below-grade" portions might be 3500 SF and the "GLA" was a foyer or entry.

Every architect, surveyor, and engineer in the world understands "grade" as ground level when referencing elevations in a set of plans. They also understand that "grade" can be more than one level in bi-level, tri-level construction. Fannie doesn't. However, they also understand "grade" as the quality level. That was true at least when i worked for an engineering firm years ago. And when a split level dwelling has two elevations of "grade" a lower and an upper level, they do not call the lower level a "basement" and if that basement serves solely to house an auto and maybe the water heater and CHA...is it a 'basement'? or a garage?

On a flat 2000 SF one story, no basement dwelling, one half being central air, heat, carpeting, finished with appliances, etc. and the other half being without plumbing, having window air and space heat with paneling nailed directly over stud walls and no insulation, you have two grades of work but the whole structure is "grade level"... One is the GLA and one is "off grade" [which can also mean construction element that is unlevel]
So...do you average the two elements to estimate the RCN of GLA? Or treat it as two elements? Likewise, are you lumping the "basement" under "basement" or under garage when the "basement" is a garage? ...and what about when the garage is a dirt floor?

As for "on grade" construction (as one pix below demonstrates) it depends upon where you call "ground level". Is it the level you walk in on? (a foyer), the level BELOW where the garage is on the same level as the den and master suite; and you walk DOWN from the foyer? or above, where you have to walk UP to the kitchen and bedrooms? Yeah, its a bad design..at least from this side of the house...it also makes a mishmash out of fannie's silly definition.

In the one pix below the entry has to be walked up to, the garage is "on grade" by engineering standards. The den/master to L is on same grade. The rest of the house has to be accessed by going up a ½ flight of stairs.

The second one is a little more complex. Again, the landing is about 5'x5' inside the entry at "grade". The lower L of house is also on same grade on slab. The entry then goes up to the midlevel where the kitchen is. To exit the kitchen you go UP to the bedrooms, or DOWN to the living room and the living room. At the entry, you can go RIGHT into an ON GRADE area that is below grade....it is lesser finish. In fact, when originally built it was the garage plus a utility. Now it is an office, den and utility. If you step out back from the utility, office, you find that you are about 2' below the ground level as is much of the rear of the house...so? is any part of the dwelling that appears to be "on grade" from front, "on grade" from the rear?

There are 3 quality levels (grades) in the dwelling. The original tri-level area; the converted garage area; and, the garage. But the only areas that are on grade by fannies definition would be the upper levels. But, in reality there is no "basement" and no dirt against a wall, etc. that would otherwise define "basement".. Basement is not a quality level and to make sensible adjustments for size, you need to count the original tri-levels and deduct somewhat for the lower "on grade" level which is "lower" grade regardless fannie's suggested way of doing it.

But that all deflects from the original purpose of my comments. In the cost approach, I am curious how you parse the cost book to arrive at defensible numbers. Again,
I am saying that the upper level (with the kitchen, bedroom, bath, and living room) is functionally comparable to the "main" level on just about every other house out here.
Then what is the issue with the basement/living area.....? It is a small house over a basement garage? It is not a Finished Room over Garage...
I am uncomfortable making up a negative adjustment for "unconventional construction"
I would be too. The Q I have is market acceptance of very small houses that appear to be unfinished mansions....I mean if this is all you are going to get, then the comparables are cabins or other small houses.

On the right hand pix below, note - rear in inset. The Left side (from front) is on wd subfloor. Most of the narrow center as well, landing in front also opens to the right into den that is on a slab foundation, level with the garage on extreme right. From the rear the foundation of the middle portion is 2' below "grade", the front is "on grade". There is a narrow level betwen the two in the rear view I didn't get marked that in the kitchen - mid level of the trilevel...
 
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And the next blind man felt the elephant's butt and said..."this stinks!". Here we go again, everyone sees it differently.

FROG...Finished Room over Garage. If you have to go outside to get to it...it isn't GLA.

Below Grade...nearly everyone uses this term to refer to any finished area below grade (ground level).

Quality of construction...lots of different ones but never heard of "Below Grade" to describe this. Why not just say...Inferior or Below Average, or what ever? Did one a few years back that was superior to that of the main structure because it was brand new and done to current codes.

Just because a garage has a room over it does not make it below grade or basement unless... it is below grade like a drive under garage usually is. Does that make sense?

How do you account for the improvement? I use one of the blank lines on the grid and call it "guest room, guest house, recreation room, hobby room, loft, work shop, etc. Describe it as you visualize it. A 24 x 24 (576SF room) could be lots of things and definitely has value, at least in my market. Typical cost would be around $30 ~ $35 a square foot new these days. $15,000 to $20,000 with a market reaction of probably half that.

The last one I did was very nice and used as a recreation room with pool and table tennis (ping pong for those of you in Arkansas). It even had a 2pc bath and small kitchenette. The couches made out into two queen sized beds so it was really suitable as a guest house.
 
Mike, the OP was talking about a garage with 2nd story living space over a ground level ( or very slightly below grade) garage as the only improvement on the property.
 
OK, here's a picture of the second one ... it clearly shows what I am talking about.

lqogkq4.jpg


Hopefully that will help!

@ Richard Carlson - that's pretty much what I did. I found homes with similar square footage and/or utility, and I put the garage level on the "basement" line and the upper level with the living area on the GLA line in the subject column with full disclosure and pictures.

@ Terrel - Short sentences for you. Since you do not finish my long ones. The lower level is entirely above grade. The lower level contains NO finished area. The lower level is a garage only. The lower level is inaccessible from the upper level. The upper level contains ALL the living area. I understand you have a need to challenge and/or argue. That is fine, and a good quality in an appraiser. However I am not looking to be called a fraud or dishonest; I am looking for opinions as to what others have done/would do in similar situations. Thank you.

@ Mike Garrett - as you can see in the picture, it is not at all below grade. However, when I compared this house to my comps I compared the subject's lower level to the comps' basements. Is this what you would have done (in an absence of similar properties)? Or do you have a different solution? Thanks!

Oh, and since we can post pics, here's the first one. On this one the "middle" story has the same foot print, but the top story does not. All the other criteria are the same: lowest level is entirely above ground, there is no finished area, it is all garage, etc. (This home is timber frame, too.) (And yes, that's a bigger-than-life pentagram on the side of it!)
lqog2xh5.jpg
 
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Thanks for the pictures. So is there no basements below what i see? I don't see anything I would call below grade from this angle. So I wouldn't be applying a basement cost to anything that is visible to me (that is an observation from an old cost approach appraiser). But the cabin designation seems correct. These look like cabins, not finished rooms over garage. And understanding that like some of our old farmhouses, they sort of grow with time as 'add ons' are built. The lower level (unfinished)...well...i suppose you could comp it to "basement". The basement /off grade line is two lines so offsetting them as one adjustment would help keep the gross adjustment lower.

My (incorrect) vision of what you had as a subject was a partially completed dwelling where the garage and the overhead room had been built but the remainder of the dwelling was unfinished or even unstarted. I see a lot of folks build a shop or garage, move in, then finish the house later...or live in their garage for years. I was relating functional obsol. to a market reaction to less than complete homes. These appear to be cabins or second homes.

I think it would be interesting to vet a number of these sales by Living area, basement area, non-finished area, and garage or unfinished area, in a regression analysis and see if you could get some numbers to "fall out"...i.e.- are people willing to pay much for unfinished spaces, etc. In doing that for manufactured homes I was unable to detect much market reaction to add on rooms unless the quality of the room exceeded the quality of the manf. home.
 
Whats with the pentagram on the side of the building?
 
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