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Lot-mkt $ Change,as Front To Depth Ratio Changes

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Steven:
As to the 4-3-2-1 rule, the first time I heard that rule was about 30 years ago. I read an appraisal report, at least it was considered one by the standards of the times, that quoted some authoritive source that explained the 4-3-2-1 rule and the corner lot rule that said something like corner lots have been found to sell for 25% more than inside lots. Seems like I saw the same thing in about the 7 or 8th edition of The Appraisal of Real Estate by the AIREA. In my experience I have never seen any market support for any rule, it is always frontage and site area as the critical factors. There are no rules as I know of except to find the equation that explains the correlation between sale price and variables that determine price.
I don’t now what you mean by your statement that we can’t measure size and shape at the same time. I said nothing about shape, I said frontage vs. site area. Shape could be a third variable and if the site were reggular shaped using the depth would yield the same result as site area (an example of measuring the same thing twice) but I don’t remember seeing it indicated by any data set. Frontage and depth does have some interesting aspects though because a square is sort of a form of least sum of the squares as to length of perimeter and site area. A square maximizes the area and minimizes the perimeter and the regression maximizes the price when the frontage and site area are in the proper balance but I don’t see what you are getting at with that point. By the way, I do not remember ever seeing any corner influence. Probably another myth because it seems like it would make sense like the 4-3-2-1 rule makes sense, unfortunately the market players around here never heard of the rules.

Ed: Forget those rules because they are wrong in principle. They were a crutch like matched pairs for example until a better method came along. I don’t have my copy of the Appraisal of Real Estate here right now, but in the sales comparison approach chapter their example, if I remember correctly, is an example using a commercial lot. I worked the problem with regression and the example solution in the book is not wrong but far less than the best solution. The unusual thing about using regression is that it measures things that you can't percieve. An example is the local residential market being divided into historical eras. I figured that out by deductive reasoning. I accounted for all of the physical factors and it still would not work, so I took another look at the data to see what was driving the price differences. When I looked at the pictures of the houses I could see it. Then if you want to you can enter that into the regression and use a broader data base if you are short on sales. Same with one and two story houses, just don't enter a one story in the regression as a 1 and a two story as a 2. Enter one as a 0 and two story as a 1. Same goes fro waterfront property. But that is old hat now as I have invented a new method that yields the same results, is much simplier, and looks like a conventional marketing grid but the key is the correct sequence of adjustments done properly.
 
I'd agree with Austin. Front footage to site area in square feet.

However you may not have enough data. This is often the real problem outside of the classroom.... But if you are looking for "change" or "change in value", graph your data. Its nice if you can graph at least two different trend lines of market driven search criteria. For you that would be front footage/lot square footage and price/square foot.

Here in valuing outlying river frontage property, I graph front foot/site square footage and price/acre or price/square foot--this will give me a good number and show the breakoff for excess land.

There are some markets and new markets that the market driven unit is unknown or unapparant. Graph what you can...then with some level of knowledge, get on the phone and talk to people that seek this product and see what units they talk about.

Another example. I get a phone call last week. A guy moves here and has bought apartments "all over the u.s." and wants to buy here. He wants to retain me to consult to him. He starts talking about deals he is looking at, and continues to talk about price/apt unit and price/square foot. Well, I have gone through alot of apartment data here and price/square foot is not a viable unit here and is not an accurate unit to measure market value, nor is rent/square foot. But in other areas of the nation with stricter government controls and more sophisticated developers they often are good indicators of MV.

You can quantify a lot of interesting things is you are paid enough to do so.

Good Luck.
 
4-3-2-1 is a reasonable tool (not rule) in some markets or segements of some markets. There are a number of investors in our market that make a lot that do a lot of quick and dirty on site calculations. Because there are buyers out there that use these old "tools" it is not unreasonable for an appraiser to use them since if we are doing our job we are mimicing the actions of the typical participant in a given market. 4/3/2/1 in my market is most applicable to the lower end of the market, more expensive properties typically attract more sophisticated buyers who use more scientific tools.
 
I don’t now what you mean by your statement that we can’t measure size and shape at the same time. I said nothing about shape, I said frontage vs. site area.
Austin, I said we COULD measure size and shape at the same time. Also, you may not be accustomed to calling frontage vs. site area “shape,” but the semantics don’t give me a problem. A 200-wide by 800-deep site has the same site area as a 400-wide by 400 site, but different “shapes.”

I’ll send you a PM about the 4-3-2-1 rule. FWIW, there are a lot of old time assessor’s manuals with endless formulas to account for depth, proximity to corners, discounts for triangularity and degrees of triangularity. I can’t figure out how they produced all these nifty looking non-linear graphs in 1915 without Excel. Artful rendering?
 
I would like to hear from anyone that has appraised tracts of "takings" at the front and at the back as well as the middle.

How did you handle it?

Ted appears to understand what is involved in such.

Most agree that the frontage is worth more, if so what is the back worth? More or Less?

What is the middle worth?

The 4-3-2-1 method has been used in takings many times.(will try to find some OLD projects.

It is similar to the soils map type of estimating used by rural appraisers.

Hamburger is not as valuable as T-Bone.

I know Austin is headed down to the butcher shop, looking at the % of cuts from a beef, getting the cost of it and checking the total $$ and abstracting a cost per lb of each.(he can do it I know)

Good discussion. keep the cards and letter coming, that the way we learn.

ed.
 
Oops, correction!
I just checked the mildew section of my library. I though that the 4-3-2-1 assumption was invented as a by a judge in an 1866 NY case, but that was just a 2-1 "rule." (That is the first 50% of depth as 2/3 of the value and the back 50% has 1/3 of the value).

I did find this in a 1931 text.
"Perhaps the earliest and crudest unit foot method was the 4-3-2-1 rule, where the first 25 feet of depth of a 100-foot lot value at $100 per front foot were given a value of $40..."
Have to stop now before I have a reaction to the mildew. :eyecrazy:
 
Verne: I was appraising a 20-unit apartment complex once. I met the owner and started asking questions like: what is the gross rent, vacancy and collection loss, expenses, etc., and the owner just stopped and looked at me and said: “You don’t give a damn about my apartments, all you care about is the money. I will tell you all you need to know about appraising apartments, one bedroom units sell for $32 per square foot and two bedrooms units sell for $35 per square foot.” True story I swear, within two years he had lost every thing he had and was living in his daughter’s (the Realtor that was advising him) basement. He also went into the manufactured home subdivision business. His Realtor daughter’s idea again no less. Her ideas, his money. Had another instance of the same thing happening. That complex was just sold in a divorce settlement in September.

Steven: I still don’t get it. Site area and shape are correlated or can be but they are two different concepts. All of the variables, frontage, site area, shape, etc., are covariant variables because their relationship in some combination maximizes the value of the site. Shape has something to do with the out come but you can’t know how until you solve the problem and extract the effect of shape from the data.
 
Austin,
I agree with you and posted the same thing about covariance in the other frontage thread.

Maybe I just use the word “shape” in a more literal way than you are accustomed to. It seems obvious to me, that if one rectangular site is 200 by 400 and another rectangular site is 200 by 600, that both may be rectangles, but they have a different shape. One is more equilateral than the other.
 
Austin & Steve,

You two guys are good at blowing smoke and using mirrors. To turn this into a HBU problem discussion is interesting to say the least without a whole lot of other data. Quite frankly, regression used in this way is not going to prove a thing with small unimproved sites such as a 200 x 400 compared to 200 x 600 in a commercial setting. I do believe it would provide quite a bit of insight in a residential area.

Really now, Do you expect me to believe that using a few dimensions plugged into a regression engine is going to yield useful data!

I also think that rules such as 3-2-1 or whatever were more a function of Intended User, Purpose and unwillingness to pay for a proper scope of work!

Then again, I could be just blowing smoke from my ignorant butt. :blink:
 
Andrew:
Your last sentence sums it up pretty well. You have it exactly backwards. There is a difference between smoke & mirrors and fogg.
 
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