OSU Beavers
Elite Member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2007
- Professional Status
- Licensed Appraiser
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- Oregon
That is the stupidest post I've ever read on this forum.
Well **** you too then!
That is the stupidest post I've ever read on this forum.
Spoken like a true member of the "Haves"
Access to health care is a right and the ability to purchase affordable health insurance will be a right after 2014.
I agree 100%. And I would add that the pharms have to much money at stake. Treating symptoms is sooo much more profitable.
I highly doubt that, we, as citizens, will ever have the concerted power to make the changes that are needed. We will continue down this path, nibbling at the edges of the issues. Corporations have gotten too large and the manipulation of masses has become a proven science. That combined with our own faults will keep things basically as they are.
... the only thing I have is the ability to think .....
... and I think ... that I would rather see myself, my wife and my daughter rot and starve to death ..... and die of an easily curable sickness than to have myself in bondage to any central authority on the planet .....
...that kind of of authority belongs in the hands of an eternal realm ......
George,
All very good issues and worthy of discussion. I don't disagree with you on most of it. Regarding Europe and Japan and their systems...the neat part is that we do have the chance to develop a system that works, economically and ethically. The process is not always pretty.
Will all due respect, and it is significant, you must feel very strongly about this subject. In all of your prior post that I have read, you always maintain such a high level. I am suprised to see you sinking to the "you guys" and "grow up" level.
I am not sure what OTHER side of the fence special interests you are referring.
For the record, I am not anti corporations. I also do not think that corporations are the be all, end all of the world. In my opinon, there is an inherant conflict between corporations and humanity. Corps are here for a very specific reason...to make money. That is all fine and dandy. Sometimes that intersects with what is best for us as humans, often, it does not.
First off and for the record I have little but contempt for the western Euros, hence my disdain for when they're held up as an example.
As for the special interests, I'm talking about dismantling the influence from both sides of the fence. So many people have singled out the insurance corporations as Public Enemy #1 with little more than lip service being paid to rein in all the other special interest groups, like the doctors who own the hospitals and labs they refer their own patients to, or the lawyers, or the government bureaucrats, or the unions, or the retirees, or the power users of medical care. Too many to count. If we're going to do one we should be prepared to do them all without regard for whose ox is getting gored.
Wanna nationalize health care? Then do it all the way. Sponsor the medical and nursing students so as to remove the risks involved in setting out in those occupations. Let them graduate with zero debt. Remove or reduce their exposure to civil litigation. Same with all the manufacturers and suppliers of medical equipment and fungibles and everyone else involved in the situation.
If you get sick and have to seek medical care under such a system you should start off recognizing that there are risks involved with getting sick and there are no guarantees.
Sure, such a system is a recipe for mediocrity. But if social justice and imposing an artificial equality on everyone is the thing then what's wrong with lowering the bar in order to extend those benefits further?
As for social justice, that's an artificial construct, too. It's easy to poll for approval of social justice, just like it's easy to poll for approval of cute little kittens. Everyone loves kittens; only an anti-social troll hates kittens. Yet, lots of people are smart enough to recognize that actually adopting and raising kittens is incompatible with their own lifestyles. Polling for who declines to own kittens does not justify characterizing the naysayers as all being trolls. Yet that's exactly the situation we have with nationalized health care. In the abstract everyone wants "free" healthcare, but lots of people recognize that the real costs of "free" to them grossly exceeds the benefits. That opinion doesn't make them a troll.
We have fixated on how to "pay" the costs without giving serious attention to "reducing" those costs. How much easier would it be to extend coverage if we could reduce the costs? A cost reduction @ 10% would enable the extension of coverage well in excess of 10% more people - at the same gross cost - because the overwhelming majority of the people who haven't been paying so far don't actually use health care services every year. It's arguable that the single most effective means of extending coverage is via the reduction in costs.
There are way too many people who believe that we can have it both ways; Cadillac care for the masses. The reality is that we can have one or the other, but probably not both. Leastwise not in the beginning.
Most people don't need the extremes that are possible under our current system. If we're really trying to act in the interests of the masses then I think we should acknowledge that fact and act accordingly.
As for health care being a right, I'd like to see the reference for that in our Constitution or the Bill of Rights. If we as a society agree that we want to do that going forward then that's great; but so far I'm not seeing much in the way of that type of consensus. The only reason the HCR bill got passed (barely) this time around is because Obama isn't Bush. If your celebrating the passage of the HCR bill then you should be sending Bush-43 a thank-you note for being a knucklehead because his follies had a lot more to do with the DNC domination of Congress than anything Pres. Obama did.
Redgardless of what should be, I believe that we are all just along for the ride. The politicians will all invariably do what their various special interest bribes pay them to do. Very few people are willing to put their own oxen into the barber's chair for a haircut.
"Providing for the general welfare" doesn't even come close to charging the government to provide us with nationalized health care any more than it does for the government providing us all with food and water.
Gun rights are indeed specifically mentioned with the clause "the right of the people to bear arms" in the 2nd ammendment and yet that issue STILL is not universally recognized one way or the other.
The point is that, having not previously established nationalized health care as either a human right or a constitutional right it has become a hotbutton issue amongst a divided electorate. If the electorate decides to install it at some later date then the will of the people will prevail. Short of that the ends don't justify the means.