Mold in the bathroom

[Jeff Deuitch]

I did an FHA purchase of an older home. It had several issues but one was mold in the bathroom. It was growing on walls well away from the shower and in big enoug areas that I called for an inspection.

The Realtor went out and cleaned it up with a little Clorox and Lysol and then called for a 442. I asked for a copy of the mold remediation report proving that the mold was non toxic and not buried deep within the drywall. All I got were screams of horror. "We are closing tomorrow!". Well, first, I cannot get over there by tomorrow, I just got the 442 request this morning, and also what kind of mold was it?

Are you qualified to determine that the mold was a non-toxic variety? Will you send me a letter signed and notarized by you and your broker stating that the mold issue is resolved and there is no health hazard.

I also requested a structural for a soft floor. They got the brother-in-law contractor instead of a real engineer to make a report. It has been a week and I have yet to see either.

I am an appraiser and microbiologist and involved in both the appraisal and mold industries. I can address your question.

There are no government or regulatory standards for mold exposure. Most all species contain some toxins. This is really not the issue at all. The only standard that has been adopted is a defacto industry standard which suggest that if ten fold higher levels of fungal spores (either total count or on a group by group basis are present on the interior than the exterior, then an "amplification" of spores due to an interior cause is assumed.

I do occasionally see where someone is making claims of "toxic" species. For the most part these assumptions are nonsense. I am launching a forum and podcast which will address many of these issues at www.iaqforum.net and www.iaqcast.com. We are just forming this system and while the forum is functional, the podcast is not quite yet ready.

Two genera of fungi have been associated with airborne toxins. They are Stachybotrys and Memnoniella which are closely related. Legislation has been passed in Texas, Louisiana and hopefully soon in my state, Florida.

I would stongly avoid a 442 claiming that effective mold remediation has been accomplished. Verifying adequate remediation of a mold area is not the job of the appraiser. Bleach is a cleaning compound. When mold is visible on wall surfaces, it is likely present in greater concentrations in the wall cavity. All that wiping down a significant area of mold accomplishes is agitating large populations of spores into the air. If the area in question still has a moisture problem, then mold will reappear in short order. Bleach does not have any lasting effect and does not kill significant populations spores with casual exposure. The moisture problem that lead to biological growth needs to be cured first. If the mold reappears due to continuing moisture, the buyer will likely be angry and all parties involved may be in a position of liability. Please also note that unless you are in a state with regulatory laws concenring mold, the inspector may very well be poorly educated and their certification may be the result of a one day course. The industry is plagued with people like this. In most states there are no regulations about "certifications" and most are not worth the paper they are printed on. I would not get involved with the selection of a mold inspector unless you wish to be responsible for the actions of this person.

The fees charged by a well qualified person may well be well above what a realtor is willing to recommend or a seller willing to pay. Bottom line, these 1 day certification types are often hired. If summoned to court, their qualifications and experience are rapidly revealed.

In mold assessment projects, typically an assessment is performed, followed by remediation by a remediation contractor which should not have any business relationship with the assessor and is hence neutral. After the remediation project is complete, the assessor is sent back to the property to retest to verify that the remeidation has been properly performed. The assessor then issues a compliance certificate. The report you requested is not a remediation report, it is an assessment report. Proposed legislation in Florida and other states makes it a felony crime for assessors to perfrom remediation and vice versa. This is for some very valid reasons.

If the area of mold is small, <10 Sq Ft., then cleaning is generally considered appropriate (consult the IICRC S520 mold remediation spec), however air sampling by a qualified technician is the only way to verify that interior airborne fungal spore levels are within the industry standards.

As for the the impending closing, I would not let this affect your judgement or actions. USPAP and state laws do not make this an excuse for wrongdoing for appraisers nor does it reduce your liability. Tread carefully.

Hope this helps.

Jeff Deuitch
Microbiologist and Appraiser
Manatee Appraisal Service and Int'l Microbiology & Mold group
Palmetto, FL

 

[Jeff Deuitch]

Actually, I think I described as a mold appearing substance and I made it subject to an inspection by a qualified and licensed professional. I guess the Realtor qualifies, que no?

I don't screw around with this moldy looking stuff. If there is any nasty looking stuff I include it and call for inspections. I was watching one of those Home Makeover shows recently. The father was a healthy 30 something fireman that took ill and died in about 30 days. They traced it to a mold infestation in the basement.

Not me.

Very few states have mold licensing laws. I have been working with state legislators to get mold licensing passed in Florida. Texas and Louisiana are exceptions. Most "certified" mold inspectors have no background in the biological sciences. Without licensing, interested parties should request a resume or CV to verify qualifications and experience.

Jeff Deuitch
Microbiologist and appraiser
Palmetto, Fl

 

[Jeff Deuitch]

I'v posted before about mold. Used to be a part owner of a company that remediated mold. Took course work in OSHA aproved methods & procedures to remediate (stop the damage) and repair mold, sewage, and water damage. (Also did smoke, fire, pet odor, etc.)

Couple of (3) things...

There is no such organism as "mildew". What causes the "mildew" smell is mold.

The proper person to sign off is NOT a contractor. We were contractors. We NEVER accepted responisbility for what appeared to be mold until a specialist tested and said it was mold.

Contractors are licensed to build stuff. They are not licensed to know what caused the need for repair (what organism caused the problem). Never call on a contractor to assess whether a mold problem exists, or was successfully abated.

An Industrial Hygienist is the right person to call for clearance and determines if it has been cleaned successfully. Surface and/or air testing is necessary to determine existence of mold.

The contractor and industrial hygienist work in tandem to clear the house/structure of problems.

I wonder if the Realitore Estate Agent/Broker is also a licensed contractor and/or industrial hygienist?

You have some valid points but some clarification is in order. Yes, there is no distinction between mold and mildew they are both fungi. The smell you attiibute to mold probably has more to due with bacteria which grow several orders of magnitude faster than fungi. As a microbiologist in this field, I can attest to qualifications. However, the fees of a CIH (certified industrial hygienist) or myself are such that Realtors typically stay away and instead hire one of the "certified" mold inspectos which typically have a one or two day course to acheive their "certifications". Laws, such as that in Texas, will be showing up which provide strict requirements for those who can perfrom assessments. The biggest problem in the idustry is the conflict of interests inherrent between assessment and remediation. There are many bad players out there.

I anticipate that licensing in the mold industry will become established in that industry the way FIRREA mandated licensing in the appraisal industry many years ago. Just as certifications from the Appraisal Institute, Society and others expereinced reduced importance after licensing, the same will happen in the mold industry. It will take some time however.

Jeff Deuitch
Microbiologist and appraiser
Palmetto, FL

 

[Karl]

I'm fortunate I'm NOTHING nore than an Appraiser anything that is NOT typical normal of a home, A specialist in that field NEEDS to be consulted. Be it roofing, Lead paint, electical, plumbing, or enviromental POTENTIAL hazard, Or anything unusual that I do NOT normally see in the typical home. I just say see photo's. Once I've seen something that is NOT typical normal of a home I can NOT do anything about it cause I'm JUST an Appraiser. The specialist (I never say expert), that should have been consulted NEEDS to make the decision I suppose the UW can do anything they want too. I'm NOT a specialist at anything.

Think about it; IF that substance can be just washed away, WHY wasn't it done before you got there?? MY guess it was, BUT it came back, as it does on a home here in AZ City. They clean it every week or so BUT it returns. That is WHY the MLS says must contact selling agent PRIOR to showing. Course I do NOT know for sure cause I'm just an Appraiser.

 

[Jeffery Hall]

Jeff D. is right...

You have some valid points but some clarification is in order. Yes, there is no distinction between mold and mildew they are both fungi. The smell you attiibute to mold probably has more to due with bacteria which grow several orders of magnitude faster than fungi. As a microbiologist in this field, I can attest to qualifications. However, the fees of a CIH (certified industrial hygienist) or myself are such that Realtors typically stay away and instead hire one of the "certified" mold inspectos which typically have a one or two day course to acheive their "certifications". Laws, such as that in Texas, will be showing up which provide strict requirements for those who can perfrom assessments. The biggest problem in the idustry is the conflict of interests inherrent between assessment and remediation. There are many bad players out there.

I anticipate that licensing in the mold industry will become established in that industry the way FIRREA mandated licensing in the appraisal industry many years ago. Just as certifications from the Appraisal Institute, Society and others expereinced reduced importance after licensing, the same will happen in the mold industry. It will take some time however.

Jeff Deuitch
Microbiologist and appraiser
Palmetto, FL

Jeff D., for the most part you are right. I have read your posts and concur. The ONLY thing I disagree with is (and this is so minor that it hardly bears mention) is our disagreement regarding mildew. And you are probably right as I do not have a degree in Bio. I say it is a colloquial and general term for mold, and is marked by odors that come about as you have outilined. I mis posted about the odor. Confusing? Yes. We probably agree in the end.

Beyond that, the Certified Industrial Hygienist has the same kind of role as the appraiser. And has the same types of liability issues and pressures for fraud. There are Skippy Hygienists too. Insurance companies love skippy CIHes.

But what does an Industrial Hygienist cost? I am wondering about what happens after we call for an inspection that motivates the heroic DIY realtor-hygienists. For a patch of mold in one bathroom, what does it cost to have an qualified pro come out, sample and test, not even treat?

The hygienists I worked most closely charged for reports, time, miles, and lab fees. Cost for hygienists were usually in excess of $600 at the low end and could run to as high as... :new_multi:!!! Think... How much for an appraisal? What is the SOW? There was usually a first test to set the base line and a second (3rd, 4th, etc. as needed) test to clear the property after remediation. Remember, though, remediation tears the house apart.

Clearance states the house is clean to a standard. After cleaning it must be rebuilt. Sheetrock, flooring, fixtures, cabinets, etc. may be gone and thrown out.

The cost of the testing is above and beyond the cleaning by a contractor. Thousands for the cleaning. After the cleaning and testing, rebuild the parts of the house torn out to get rid of the mold: possibly thousands more.

I don't know what others may have charged, but my personal experience was: As for a range, including IH fees, the least expensive cleaning was around $1,500. The most expensive cleaning and rebuild was over $70,000. (This house had 2 water leaks months apart. One from a winter storm, the other from a broken pipe. Months went by without addressing the problems. The HO and insurance company could not agree on SOW. The problems just got worse.)

Use check box 4. One never knows what you may find.

I have been out of it for at least 4 years. Take what I have shared here with a grain of salt.:blush:

 

[Jeffery Hall]

Jeff D. already addressed this, but...

I'm fortunate I'm NOTHING nore than an Appraiser anything that is NOT typical normal of a home, A specialist in that field NEEDS to be consulted. Be it roofing, Lead paint, electical, plumbing, or enviromental POTENTIAL hazard, Or anything unusual that I do NOT normally see in the typical home. I just say see photo's. Once I've seen something that is NOT typical normal of a home I can NOT do anything about it cause I'm JUST an Appraiser. The specialist (I never say expert), that should have been consulted NEEDS to make the decision I suppose the UW can do anything they want too. I'm NOT a specialist at anything.

Think about it; IF that substance can be just washed away, WHY wasn't it done before you got there?? MY guess it was, BUT it came back, as it does on a home here in AZ City. They clean it every week or so BUT it returns. That is WHY the MLS says must contact selling agent PRIOR to showing. Course I do NOT know for sure cause I'm just an Appraiser.

The probable reason it comes back is that approximately 1/10 of the mold is visible. 9/10 is either running throughout/within the sheet rock and/or on the substrate (sheetrock and studs) within the wall cavity.

Think of it as a lawn. Cut the grass, and it keeps coming back. Strong root system. Gotta dig it up to get rid of it.

Gotta open the wall and sand it off the studs or encapsulate it and get rid of the infected sheet rock.

Have fun...

 

[CANative]

Wow.

While I have several inspection tests from properties I've appraised with fungus issues and they're enough to not make me not fall for the old clorox/442 trick, Jeff and Jeff's posts are priceless information.

Thank you both for taking the time to post some very valuable information.

 

[CANative]

The day after I posted, I inspected a little house in Willits, CA. I noted some damaged trim and soffits along the north side. When I entered the interior (house was a rental in between tenants) I noted a familiar odor of mildew/mold/fungus. The living room and one bedroom (also along the north side of the structure) had some black growth near the baseboards. But the total area wasn't very large. Maybe a square foot in the livingroom (but darker, more intense color) and the bedroom may have had two areas of about a square foot or so each.

The nearest real mold company is 90 miles south and charges $900 just to do an initial evaluation (very similar to what Jeff described.)

Is this one severe enough to call out and require inspection? I would use CB4 under the EA that mitigation at this point would not be significant.

 

[Renee Healion]

Thank you both too. I just now spotted your replies.

 

[Jeff Deuitch]

My sentiments exactly. Your work is done. When you use CB4, there's no 442 necessary. The lender simply needs to take the initiative to accept the inspection report of the qualified and licensed professional. More than one year after the new forms, many lenders still don't understand this...

As previously mentioned, most states do not have ANY mold licensing or regulation. Certifications are typically somehting that is obtained by a fee and short course. Be very careful not to refer to "mold inspectors" as licensed or otherwise regulated unless you are in one of the few states which actually has mold licensing laws.

You can check www.iaqforum.net to keep up with environmental and mold issues.

Thanks.

Jeff Deuitch
Microbiologist and appraiser