Must 3 pronged outlets be grounded to meet HUD MPS?

[Verne Hebert]

If it is a two wire system it wasn't a problem before. Why is it a problem if one installs a receptable that allows grounding is physically possible?...but it is not.

In the MPR's does it call for a GFI to be installed in place of an ungrounded "three prong" in a two wire system.?

I agree, calling for an inspection is not reasonable.

You haven't mentioned. How old is this dwelling?

 

[Calvin the Airedale]

If it is a two wire system it wasn't a problem before. Why is it a problem if one installs a receptable that allows grounding is physically possible?...but it is not.

Because HUD calls this a safety violation (see the PDF attached the the OP.)

In the MPR's does it call for a GFI to be installed in place of an ungrounded "three prong" in a two wire system.?

Again, see the attached PDF. Installing an ungrounded GFCI outlet is one of the correct "fixes" for an ungrounded three prong outlet (assuming it is not located near a water source.)

I agree, calling for an inspection is not reasonable.

You haven't mentioned. How old is this dwelling?

The house is circa 1956. It has greenfield wiring (flexible cable). The ungrounded outlets are in the LR, DR, & BRs.

 

[Vermonter]

If one tests a three pronged outlet (as FHA expects be done on a spot basis) and finds it ungrounded, why should one ask for an inspection?

Just require the outlet be grounded, swapped back for a two pronged outlet, or swapped for a GFCI outlet?

One need not be an electrician to call for such a repair.

Once you find three pronged outlet where there are supposed to be two prongeds you know the system has been tampered with by someone other than a licensed electrician (at least a good one). Then you assume this is the only issue, why?

You're willing to go out on a limb by checking for proper grounding in the first place (which I do not agree is what FHA wants us to do) and when you do find something wrong you make assumptions that these are the only issues with the system?

Not getting your logic on this at all.

 

[Calvin the Airedale]

Once you find three pronged outlet where there are supposed to be two prongeds you know the system has been tampered with by someone other than a licensed electrician (at least a good one). Then you assume this is the only issue, why?

You're willing to go out on a limb by checking for proper grounding in the first place (which I do not agree is what FHA wants us to do) and when you do find something wrong you make assumptions that these are the only issues with the system?

Not getting your logic on this at all.

What is it you suppose FHA has in mind be asking us to spot check outlets? To see if electricity or water comes out of them?

After spot checking outlets and finding problems, I then checked all the outlets.

One is only responsible for reporting defects observed by the inspection regimen suggested by FHA. If one's knowledge and experience with wiring issues is not sufficient to be confident in one's observations, then an inspection should be required.

 

[Vermonter]

What is it you suppose FHA has in mind be asking us to spot check outlets? To see if electricity or water comes out of them?

Yes. I test for power to the outlet (with a pen detector, no plug in), water to the fixtures, heat to the vents....period. Not the ohms resistance, not the gallons per minute, not the efficiency of the furnace. Anything not working properly gets a call for inspection.

 

[Calvin the Airedale]

Yes. I test for power to the outlet (with a pen detector, no plug in), water to the fixtures, heat to the vents....period. Not the ohms resistance, not the gallons per minute, not the efficiency of the furnace. Anything not working properly gets a call for inspection.

If something isn't working correctly or is a known safety hazard, instead of calling for an inspection, why don't you just require that it be fixed?

The UW can always waive the requirement.

In the case I cited, I called for the outlets to either be grounded, swapped back to two pronged outlets, or swapped out with ungrounded GFCI.

Calling for an inspection would just have run up the cost.

 

[Carol Ames]

Quite a few years ago I took a class presented by FHA. The instructor asked how many people in the class were qualified home inspectors. A couple of people raised their hands. He said never tell me that again. When you do a FHA appraisal you are an appraiser. You do not state you have any other expertise. Tell us what you see, require what you need to require, recommend inspections on things that appear questionable.

I am not an electrician, I state this in my report. Actually I state I am not a home inspector, not a plumber, know nothing about wells and septic systems in my report. If my little yellow thing I plug into the wall does not have the correct lights come on I recommend an inspection by a licensed electrician. Do not ask me about this little yellow thing I plug into the outlet, I am not an electrician, it is a little thing with lights on it that tells if things work and as an appraiser, not an electrician I have no further understanding of this.

When we start telling people how smart we are and how much we understand about things above the appraisal requirements we drastically increase our liability. If some homeowner has changed some things there is no telling what else he has "fixed" we really do not need the liability, recommend an inspection.

 

[Vermonter]

If something isn't working correctly or is a known safety hazard, instead of calling for an inspection, why don't you just require that it be fixed?

I do, when it's LBP, a missing shingle, broken window, missing cover plate, etc. A "system" is a different story and outside the scope of an appraisal.

The UW can always waive the requirement.

In the case I cited, I called for the outlets to either be grounded, swapped back to two pronged outlets, or swapped out with ungrounded GFCI.

Calling for an inspection would just have run up the cost.

Not your problem. Because you "tested" the system and made a determination about what needs to be replaced, you've made it your problem and taken on the liability of the whole system.

Even if you are a licensed electrician, why risk it?

 

[Calvin the Airedale]

I do, when it's LBP, a missing shingle, broken window, missing cover plate, etc. A "system" is a different story and outside the scope of an appraisal.

Not your problem. Because you "tested" the system and made a determination about what needs to be replaced, you've made it your problem and taken on the liability of the whole system.

Even if you are a licensed electrician, why risk it?

Wrong! If the system is on and works otherwise, then the defect lies in the outlets tested, not the entire system.

Risk mitigation has a lot of people shaking in their boots. But even more likely, the reason such defects go unreported is that appraisers are afraid of losing work from clients who find them too "picky".

 

[Calvin the Airedale]

Quite a few years ago I took a class presented by FHA. The instructor asked how many people in the class were qualified home inspectors. A couple of people raised their hands. He said never tell me that again. When you do a FHA appraisal you are an appraiser. You do not state you have any other expertise. Tell us what you see, require what you need to require, recommend inspections on things that appear questionable.

I am not an electrician, I state this in my report. Actually I state I am not a home inspector, not a plumber, know nothing about wells and septic systems in my report. If my little yellow thing I plug into the wall does not have the correct lights come on I recommend an inspection by a licensed electrician. Do not ask me about this little yellow thing I plug into the outlet, I am not an electrician, it is a little thing with lights on it that tells if things work and as an appraiser, not an electrician I have no further understanding of this.

When we start telling people how smart we are and how much we understand about things above the appraisal requirements we drastically increase our liability. If some homeowner has changed some things there is no telling what else he has "fixed" we really do not need the liability, recommend an inspection.

You're not an attorney either but you have no trouble opining about liability.

No offense, but if the clients who hire you to appraise their home, whether for FHA or otherwise, were to read your narrative above, they might choose otherwise.

Take a stand. Why run up a bill calling for an inspector when you know something just needs to be fixed. So call for it to be fixed.