Proposed Rules And Changes

[Francois K. Gregoire]

Originally posted by Judy Whitehead (Florida)@Aug 11 2003, 10:42 AM
Thanks for responding, Frank. I'm sorry to be so dense. Does this mean that the post licensing 45 hours takes the place of 45 hourse of ABII? If you take ABII do you have to take the post licensing course?

Judy,

Another good question. Answer - has not yet been determined if ABII is a substitute for Post License Education Requirement. (most likely it will)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can you only stay a trainee for two licensing periods anyway? Isn't there already a limit of time that you can be a registered trainee?

You can renew a trainee registration once before taking the post license education. Prior to the second renewal, the trainee must have completed the post license education. After that, trainees can renew indefinitely, as long as they complete CE.

 

[jeff samolinski]

Frank:

I am a little concerned about the 4 trainee limit per supervisor. However, I understand the intent and agree that some limit is needed to ensure adequate supervision. My problem though is that I now have 2 trainees that have over 5 years of experience. For whatever reason they do not intend to take the state certification test nd are content for now to continue as trainees. At the same time, I am in the engineering design process of building an office building and have plans to expand my business. The 4 trainee limit will significantly affect my ability to be profitable. Probably no good solution to this situation but I just want to point out that there is currently nothing in place to recognize trainees that have even more experience that someone who has just passed the state cert. test with the minimum required field experience.

 

[Kathy in FL]

Can't be enough rules about trainees to suit me. I do reviews, and 9 times out of ten, it's a trainee. (Sometimes they're quite good, you'd be surprised.) The rest of the time, it's well...about what you'd expect.

I think trainees should have to identify themselves to HOMEOWNERS at the inspection as trainees. (Or wear a yellow shirt with "TRAINEE APPRAISER" across the front. That'd be fine.) Too often, they're working on their own around here, being signed off by someone 100 miles away, and the homeowner has no clue that he's not certified. (It's also interesting to see how many certifieds are signing off that they inspected the property and if you ask the homeowner, they'll tell you it was only one guy. Now he might have driven by later, I'm sure. <_< )

We've got this one trainee here that is working under another appraiser in another county. He maintains his own "shop" and does not work out of their office. He's also doing home inspections now, I noticed. Shouldn't a trainee be prohibited from having his own office (in his own name) rather than working under another (certified) appraiser in another office? It's a little confusing to the public.

In addition, I've noticed a trend lately when doing reviews that appraisers (certified and not) are neglecting to put their designations on the appraisal. It's just Joe Appraiser #0029. Could be a building contractor...could be a dentist...no way to tell from the appraisal.

Kathy in FL

 

[jeff samolinski]

It seems to me that the limitation of 4 trainees will effectively limit the ability of an appraisal company to ever be able to build a large or even medium sized company. Yes I understand that there is a limit to the number of trainees that one supervisor can adequately train. However there needs to be another category for trainees that have more than 2 years of experience and that have done more than the minimum number of appraisals. They could be called assistant appraisers once thay demonstrate a certain experience level. I guess though that there are folks out there that would say these trainees with experience should have to demonstrate their level of competence only via successful passing of some state test. Nice and neat bureaucratic solution but I wouldn't buy it. So now we will have appraisers out there that are certified because they have passed the state test and have their minimum experience logged in that will be looked upon as superior to those with more actual experience. Fix one problem create another!!

 

[Wally Jones]

Jeff,

To grow your business, why not begin with two or three trainees, and as your business becomes ready to expand, consider hiring an experienced certified appraiser. Then, add on a couple more trainees. If some of the trainees want to become certified, good, but if they've reached their "comfort" level and want to remain a trainee, you'd be prepared for that, too. Most successful businesses grow slowly, adding personnel only when justified and necessary. Using this system wouldn't seem to limit your growth at all. Need more trainees, hire another certified. Some folks won't stay with you long, some will stay awhile, some will try to take advantage of you, some will become lifelong friends, peers and/or partners.

The current proposals aren't perfect but it becomes clearer each day that something needs to be done to control the loose cannons out there hiring as many warm bodies as they can and sending them all over the state to fill in forms (most of them sure aren't doing appraisals).

It seems your suggestion of creating another category of appraiser would be the exact "nice and neat bureaucratic solution" that you decry. I reckon it's tough to find a way to please all of us. I don't envy the rulemakers.

 

[Jerry Still]

Wally,

Excellent reply! We must try to keep the puppy mills (sweat shops) from growing anymore cyber branches. Some sweat shops have 17 reg. assistants under one cert. appraiser. i sure hope the new proposed 4 assistants per certified passes muster. Four per one seems more than fare to me!

Jerry

 

[jeff samolinski]

Wally:

I understand what your saying, however what would be the incentive for a certified that I hired to take on trainees under his/her name? Why wouldn't they start their own business? The fee splits for me would not cover the overhead for having them. I agree that the number of trainees needs to be limited but without some additional category for experienced trainees that don't want to be certified it limits the ability to grow a business.

ps. I just lost 2 of my trainees that got certified. They are now my competitors!!! so I am hesitant to grow my business by relying on certifieds.

I think it is unfair for the state not to recognize that it is possible for trainees to have more experience and competency than a newly certified. solve one problem create another.

 

[Judy Whitehead (Florida)]

Not everyone wants to run their own shop. Mike in Tampa has 10 certified appraisers that work for him on a good fee split basis. Apparently there are people, who if treated fairly, are just interested in appraising and want to leave the business side to someone else. That way they don't necessary have to have the additional burden of running the business. I found out that administrating the business eats up a good bit of time which I used to spend on appraising.

I guess one of the main problems that will never be legally solved is the problem of making sure someone is a good supervisor and actually supervises a trainee - regardless of whether or not they have 4 or 17. It is real important to me to be a good teacher, but it isn't to everyone. Simply reading over a report does not constitute supervision, in my opinion.

 

[Dennis J. Black ASA IFAS]

Let me address a couple of issues within this thread. First let me point out to those of you who do not know me that I have been an instructor for over 10 years and currently provide appraisal education in the state of Florida under the name Institute of Real Estate Studies, I am also a general certified appraiser.

I see trainees all the time in CE, ABII, and ABIIB classes and I see no difference between relatively inexperienced ones and the "I've been an appraiser for six years" crowd (to which my responce is always, you are an appraiser when you can sign one all by yourself, right now you are a trainee). Passing the state exam is, and should be, the bar to demonstrate you no longer need supervision, not how long since you passed a pitifully easy ABI class and sent a check to the state.

Concerning the business model side of it. Yes, bringing in trainees may be raising your competition, but that was the model for decades in the real estate brokerage business. Now, the broker recoginzes they cannot just milk the salesperson. They must give the person a reason to stay with the firm. This is why RE/Max is around. The firm provides certain services, but the individual reaps the major part of their efforts.

Trainees need direct involvement with their supervisor, and on a constant basis. Four trainees is being generous. If each does 10 appraisals a week, and gets 20 minutes of supervision per job, that is over thirteen hours of "supervision" per week. Problem is most supervisors get out the red pen circle the "problems" and sent it back to the trainee. Hardly an education/training process. Also, I hear of trainees going into areas their supervisor has not worked in recently, or has never appraised in that area. Thereby calling in to question the supervisors geographic competancy. Wanna bet, only a handful of supervisors say to the trainee "Lets go out and do that one together"

Also, you should see their eyes light up when they do the case study in my ABII class. They laugh about the fact the adjustment is what you need, or what your boss tells you, and then they find out that adjustments shouldn't be, nor need to be, POA'd (pull out of air - polite version).

Think about law firms, doctors, engineers, accountants, etc... They could all open up their own firms but they realize that small groups often yield more than the sum of the parts. For a bunch of people that analysis things all day, we are woefully blind to our own business cycle.

 

[Jerry Still]

Judy, You read my mind,

I am one of those people who just wants to appraise. I ran a small appraisal company (three appraisers) in Michigan. I do not want to do in house reviews, find new clients, fire old clients, put out fires, make out 1099's, chase dead beats, etc., Rates went up and had to let my people go (hurt). rates came back down and my last two years of appraising (before moving to FL) were as a "lone ranger". Proof that the business side does eat up time to appraise is that I made almost as much $, without 90% of the responsibility and aggravation!

Dennis, You also hit the nail on the head!

You mentioned Re/MAX, I co owned a RE/MAX for about 10 years before becoming an appraiser. I would love to work for an appraisal company that is run like RE/MAX. All professionals, paid 100%, splitting office overhead and collectively paying a profit to
the owner for his/her investment. Or...show me a reputable company that pays a fair split in the Cape Coral FL area and I won't open my own office to compete with you.