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REO sales and "Market Value"

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As far as I can tell I have no way of telling if you (or ResGuy) were even appraising prior to 2009. Actually and to be quite honest I strongly suspect that one or both of you guys were selling RE or brokering loans during that time frame. You can talk about what you and the prior 3 generations of "supervisors" you came from have been doing since they got into the business in 2001 and we'd just have to take you at your word for it, wouldn't we?

I have admitted before that I have not been in this business for over 10 years (in fact I said it in one of the threads 3 years ago). I was not an RE broker nor a loan officer or such before getting into appraisals. As to my mentor and my mentor's mentor my mentor got into appraising prior to 2001 and his mentor got into appraising well over 40 years ago IIRC (if I recall correctly he got into appraising well prior to FIRREA and licensing) and is now retired. On the other hand I was into other things prior to becoming an appraiser including researching medieval history (and the beginnings of the manorial system, freehold and copyhold estates, and so forth) ... ;)
 
DMZ, any similarity to Midieval history and today's sorry turn of events? Seems like people are being turned back into surfs! (I meant, serfs!, or is that smerfs?)
 
DMZ, any similarity to Midieval history and today's sorry turn of events? Seems like people are being turned back into surfs! (I meant, serfs!, or is that smerfs?)

Yes.

But people are not being turned back into serfs as we have not (yet) seen people having to take out copyholds to hold land (similar to sharecropping). See, what 90%+ of the population enjoys is "town life" and the rest "freeholding / yeomanry". Aka, Americans are freeborn citizens and not property beholden to others. To a large degree that is a more recent phenomenon as the "company store" servitude of the coal mines where people were paid in "company script" was only abolished in mid to late 20th century (aka, the closest we had recently to "serfdom").

My knowledge of history is one of the reasons I think that I see "typically motivated" differently than others.

As for REO sales the closest I can think of in medieval times was the slow return of crop lands and even whole towns and cities to forest starting just post Roman Empire and again during the plagues.

Then there was the concept of kicking 90% of the Scottish clansmen off their land and raising sheep instead as H&BU of agricultural lands.

Lots of things happened in both the Dark Ages and the Age of Reason.
 
Believe me. I'm older than you & have experienced things that you can't imagine:peace:
 
I would agree that in historical terms, or according to sociological trends, the word typcial would have and could have, different meanings then it does in the MV definition.

I had a USPAP instructor years ago who was terrific, who explained that the word "typical" is intentionally left open ended, in order to make it relevant to changing markets. What is typical in an ideal sense, or typical for market conditions two years ago, might not be relevant in today's market. Family buyers and sellers may have been typical three years ago,but in a declining market, there may be just as many lender sellers present, who represent a typical portion of market activity, as well as investor and property flipper buyers present, who also represent a trend of today's typical market activity.

Typical has to be referenced back to the active , present, and perhaps changing market for the subject. Typical has no fixed bench mark definition or parameters attached in the definition. If the purpose of the report were to appraise to a fixed benchmark, we'd be asked to provide a value opinion, not a market value opinion.
 
Typical has no fixed bench mark definition or parameters attached in the definition.

Apparently, you missed it. The FIRST SENTENCE in the definition of MV sets the parameters. ".........under all conditions requisite to a fair sale...........and assuming the price is not affected by undue stimulus."

If the authors of this definition of MV wanted it to be "situational", they could have simply said they wanted the most probable price, motivations of buyers & sellers be "darned." Terell made the point rather well & referenced Professor Grasskamp's academic work on the matter.

Grasskamp was department chair at the University of Wisconsin's Center for Real Estate at the WI School of Business. A CG that went there worked for me a while about 20 years ago. I don't follow his academic work closely like Terell & S. Santora.

With this real estate market in an obvious long term implosion, the conditions set forth in the definition of MV that lending related appraisals need to address have become problematic, in places where there is scant current data from transactions that can even come close to the hypothetical conditions set forth in the MV definition. But, stuck in law, we are, with the definition of MV for certain types of appraisal assignments.

This is remindful of a 2nd amendment debate where one side says "you can't be serious, this is the 21st century" and the other side says "you'll have to pry it out of hand of my cold, dead body." The Constitution is hard to change, for a reason. So is the Def. of MV, since it is rolled into legislation & regulation.

I say, keep the 2nd Amendment & those opposed can work to amend the constitution. Same goes for those opposed to the current Definition of MV. I'm all for unwinding it from legislation & regulation. But, until that happens, I'm all for following the directions it offers, to the best of my ability. After all, I sign a certification to do so.
 
Apparently, you missed it. The FIRST SENTENCE in the definition of MV sets the parameters. ".........under all conditions requisite to a fair sale...........and assuming the price is not affected by undue stimulus."

You are lifting one segment from the definition, and there are many sections that have to be satisfied. But focusing on this section, what is "unfair" about an REO sale? It is closed in cash or equiv, a deed is granted, an attorney for buyer can review the contract, the buyer is well informed , etc.

Then there is undue stimulus. The problem is, undue stimulus is not precisely defined. This applies to both REO, and non REO sales. Some amount of stimulus is implied in a property sale, as it is a time consuming and expensive and uprooting process.

Thus, the term is not just stimulus, but "undue" stimulus. When enough sales of a certain type are occuring in a market, such as REO sales, can the stimulus behind them continue to be viewed as "undue"?

The sources that support using REO comps, where appropriate, recognize that when the stimulus behind the sales becomes common, aka typical, and market accepted, it is no longer "undue". If an appraiser feels the stimulus behind an REO sale was enough to impact price, they can adjust for that. But that is different than excluding them or making assumptions based on history, or academia, or other areas that do not apply in apprasial value development.

The problem is that, by isolating just this one element of the MV definition, "undue stimululs", and "fair sale", the rest of the market definition is ignored , and REO sales that are marketed on MLS and avail for reasonable exposure, meet the test of the majority of MV definition.

I'll lift some sections from the MV definition: ."a property should bring in a competitive and open market": when REO sales are on MLS and avail to buyers, they comprise part of open and competitive market.

"The buyer and seller each acting prudently, knowledgably".. Buyers of REO property are often the more knoweldable buyers.

Most comps are weaker in fulfilling some areas of the MV definition when we grid them and adjust , and stronger in other areas, the same goes for REO sales.

If the authors of this definition of MV wanted it to be "situational", they could have simply said they wanted the most probable price, motivations of buyers & sellers be "darned."

The authors pretty much did that. The motivation section of the MV definiton merely states that the "buyer and seller are typically motivated". When large numbers of buyers elect to pruchase REO's, how can you say they are not typically motivated? And when the sellers of large numbers fo properties in an area are lenders, and their actions are prevalent, how can you say they are not typically motivated? Typically motivated, as compared to whom, or what? If you argue that banks are not typically motivated compared to a private party homeowner, again, a private party homeowner is not defined as a typical benchamark. To say that th MV defintion implies a private party homewoner is based on ...what?

If the authors did not want the MV def to be situational, then they needed to be far more specific. I would have no problem with a MV definition that at the end, contained the sentence, "excluding REO sales". But, the MV definition makes no such exclusion. This was even tried at the state legislative level, when Nevada and afew other states tried to pass legislation barring the use of REO sales in lending appraisals. It did not pass..the AI, and most likely lenders themselves lobbied against its passage, stating that excluding REO sales could lead to misleading assignment results.

For better or worse, despite the not clearly defined phrase, "undue stimulus", seems that the users of MV def appraisals, at least on the lender side, want the definition to be situational. I am using your term in calling the definition situation. The definition is what it is, but the market dymanics and siutaitons change, and the MV definition is left broad enough to encompass that.

e the point rather well & referenced Professor Grasskamp's academic work on the matter.

His academic work did not translate into the language of the existing MV definition?.

Grasskamp was department chair at the University of Wisconsin's Center for Real Estate at the WI School of Business. A CG that went there worked for me a while about 20 years ago. I don't follow his academic work closely like Terell & S. Santora.

The academic workl might be interesting, but if it is not part of the definition, we can't develop a value around it.

With this real estate market in an obvious long term implosion, the conditions set forth in the definition of MV that lending related appraisals need to address have become problematic, in places where there is scant current data from transactions that can even come close to the hypothetical conditions set forth in the MV definition. But, stuck in law, we are, with the definition of MV for certain types of appraisal assignments.

This is remindful of a 2nd amendment debate where one side says "you can't be serious, this is the 21st century" and the other side says "you'll have to pry it out of hand of my cold, dead body." The Constitution is hard to change, for a reason. So is the Def. of MV, since it is rolled into legislation & regulation.

I say, keep the 2nd Amendment & those opposed can work to amend the constitution. Same goes for those opposed to the current Definition of MV. I'm all for unwinding it from legislation & regulation. But, until that happens, I'm all for following the directions it offers, to the best of my ability. After all, I sign a certification to do so.

I think you are reading a more lofty, or specfic direction into the MV definition than is there...see above comments.
 
Like I said, we've already gone through all those definitions during the second phase portions of the ongoing debate.
 
Market Value Definition
Per Financial Institution Reform, Recovery and Enforcement Act of 1989 (FIRREA)

Effective August 24, 1990

Market value means the most probable price which a property should bring in a competitive and open market under all conditions requisite to a fair sale, the buyer and seller each acting prudently and knowledgeably, and assuming the price is not affected by undue stimulus. Implicit in this definition is the consummation of a sale as of a specific date and the passing of title from seller to buyer under conditions whereby:

(1) Buyer and Seller are typically motivated;
(2) Both parties are well informed or well advised, and acting in what they consider their own best interests;
(3) A reasonable time is allowed for exposure in the open market;
(4) Payment is made in terms of cash in U. S. Dollars or in terms of financial arrangements comparable thereto; and
(5) The price represents the normal consideration for the property sold unaffected by special or creative financing or sales concessions granted by anyone associated with the sale.

Market Value

As defined and explained in Real Estate Defined

The amount that a property might be expected to realize, usually expressed in monetary terms, when it is offered for sale in an open market, for a reasonable period of time, by a willing seller, in order to enable the property to be brought to the attention of all or most potential and willing buyers and when the transaction is not affected by any special circumstances that might affect the buyer, the seller or the property. The best price that a property might reasonably be expected to realize if sold in the normal course of business, after allowing a reasonable time for exposure to potential buyers, and assuming that the buyer and seller are acting in their own best interests, have entered into the transaction without any element of compulsion or duress, and the buyer does not have any special relationship or obligation to the seller. The determination of market value is normally based on a set of assumtions, such as the type and condition of the property, the interest held, the nature and conditions prevalent in the market at the date of the valuation and the purpose of the valuation.
 
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