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Subject To: Septic & Termite Certs ?

Econobot

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
Colorado
"It depends" ... depends on "what" we observe ...
EA and HC are not the same thing and have different definitions

If I "observe" a leach field with standing water ... I don't think I can just EA it away (HC could come in handy though - depending on SOW)
This forum is becoming a waste of time because people like to comment without reading the posts, I described in a fair amount of detail the "ONE" time I conditioned due to septic... Unless I see an issue while flushing a toilet or looking out on the property where the cleanout and tank access are I use an EA to state that everything appears working... In my area for several months you will never see a leach field or cleanout or have any indicatino where the septic tank is because of snow cover, now what do you do?? Thanks for the jollies, it's been fun, I have too much work to do to continue deliberating opinions.

Oh and CANnative and JGrant spend alot of time on this forum, often posting remarks that appear to contradict the majority opinion, who cares, they can do what they want. Ultimately though, the amount of time they spend on here makes me think they aren't very busy, kind of telling in such a busy economy for appraisers...
 

bnmappraisal

Elite Member
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2011
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
Florida
5. The appraiser has noted in this appraisal report any adverse conditions (such as needed repairs, deterioration, the presence of hazardous wastes, toxic substances, etc.) observed during the inspection of the subject property or that he or she became aware of during the research involved in performing the appraisal. Unless otherwise stated in this appraisal report, the appraiser has no knowledge of any hidden or unapparent physical deficiencies or adverse conditions of the property (such as, but not limited to, needed repairs, deterioration, the presence of hazardous wastes, toxic substances, adverse environmental conditions, etc.) that would make the property less valuable, and has assumed that there are no such conditions and makes no guarantees or warranties, express or implied. The appraiser will not be responsible for any such conditions that do exist or for any engineering or testing that might be required to discover whether such conditions exist. Because the appraiser is not an expert in the field of environmental hazards, this appraisal report must not be considered as an environmental assessment of the property.
I'm no lawyer but this is the purpose of an EA... Someone earlier posted that the appraisal report itself assumes everything is working with the subject, that's even more misleading than my statements??. I prefer to be clear that I did observe and everything appeared in order and emphasize it's an EA, I'm not an inspector and they should seek one if they are truly concerned.
From the first quote above (your "5. The...") I don't see you calling that an Extraordinary Assumption (EA) ... you just basically say you assume this/that, etc ... You don't call out an EA
Am I missing something??? :shrug:

(Edit to add: That's fine to assume this/that. The EA comes into play when it goes above/beyond just this/that)
 

Econobot

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
Colorado
From the first quote above (your "5. The...") I don't see you calling that an Extraordinary Assumption (EA) ... you just basically say you assume this/that, etc ... You don't call out an EA
Am I missing something??? :shrug:

(Edit to add: That's fine to assume this/that. The EA comes into play when it goes above/beyond just this/that)
I can't help you man, you appear completely lost...
I commented that someone previously posted (JGrant perhaps) that every appraisal report assumes everything in terms of utilites is in working order, not only do I feel that this is completely wrong, it is extremely misleading, at least in my area and in my experience...
#5 that I quoted, is from the pre-printed cert....kind of telling those of you that don't recognize this, I have my own but I'm familiar. "Unless otherwise stated" I am stating, summarizing and ultimately employing an EA...bceause I'm not an engineer or inspector...it's common sense, they want us to comment and I will but on my own terms, hence the EA. I can't do this anymore, good luck. When in doubt seek information from a reputable source, I'm afraid that the "top posters" on this forum are not that...
 

CANative

Elite Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2003
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
California
There is no "5."

Just what I posted from HUD Handbook 4000.1 (Rev. 03/27/2019) at Page 526 which is in the section "Valuation and Reporting Protocols."

You apparently are a weak appraiser who hasn't read or understood the manuals, handbooks, and minimum standards that apply to each appraisal assignment.

Tell you what. Run your thoughts (exactly as posted in this thread) by your local HOC and see what they say. It's my guess they'll immediately scold you and within a week or so, every FHA appraisal report that has your name on it will be in their office for scrutiny.

Good luck.

... And I'm very busy right now. And I do post a lot. I have spare time to use as I want.
 

Econobot

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
Colorado
There is no "5."

Just what I posted from HUD Handbook 4000.1 (Rev. 03/27/2019) at Page 526 which is in the section "Valuation and Reporting Protocols."

You apparently are a weak appraiser who hasn't read or understood the manuals, handbooks, and minimum standards that apply to each appraisal assignment.

Tell you what. Run your thoughts (exactly as posted in this thread) by your local HOC and see what they say. It's my guess they'll immediately scold you and within a week or so, every FHA appraisal report that has your name on it will be in their office for scrutiny.

Good luck.

... And I'm very busy right now. And I do post a lot. I have spare time to use as I want.
Straight from the handbook...


q. Onsite Sewage Disposal Systems
i. Definition

An Onsite Sewage Disposal System refers to wastewater systems designed to treat and dispose of effluent on the same Property that produces the wastewater.
ii. Required Analysis and Reporting
The Appraiser must note the deficiency of MPR or MPS and notify the Mortgagee if the Property is not served by an off-site sewer system and any living unit is not provided with an Onsite Sewage Disposal System adequate to dispose of all domestic wastes in a manner that will not create a nuisance, or in any way endanger the public health. The Appraiser must visually inspect the Onsite Sewage Disposal System and its surrounding area. The Appraiser must require an inspection to ensure that the system is in proper working order if there are readily observable signs of system failure. The Appraiser must report on the availability of public sewer to the site. The Appraiser must note the deficiency of MPR or MPS and notify the Mortgagee if the Appraiser has evidence that the Onsite Sewage Disposal System is not sufficient.
Rev. 10/24/2019 page 571

Not only am I doing what is required "visually inspect the septic system and surronding area", I choose to take it one step further and state that "upon inspection everything appeared to be in working order" I don't need to call an office to read a guideline, adhere to it, and summarize my findings in a report. Beyond that there is no way in hell you will ever catch me saying things of this nature without an EA, even if I have an engineer's report, I will cite the report and leave out my own opinion.

Let's see what the forum has to say...but from what I just posted you couldn't be more of a troll and completely off base on your commentary.....bye.
 

CANative

Elite Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2003
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
California
Straight from the handbook...


q. Onsite Sewage Disposal Systems
i. Definition

An Onsite Sewage Disposal System refers to wastewater systems designed to treat and dispose of effluent on the same Property that produces the wastewater.
ii. Required Analysis and Reporting
The Appraiser must note the deficiency of MPR or MPS and notify the Mortgagee if the Property is not served by an off-site sewer system and any living unit is not provided with an Onsite Sewage Disposal System adequate to dispose of all domestic wastes in a manner that will not create a nuisance, or in any way endanger the public health. The Appraiser must visually inspect the Onsite Sewage Disposal System and its surrounding area. The Appraiser must require an inspection to ensure that the system is in proper working order if there are readily observable signs of system failure. The Appraiser must report on the availability of public sewer to the site. The Appraiser must note the deficiency of MPR or MPS and notify the Mortgagee if the Appraiser has evidence that the Onsite Sewage Disposal System is not sufficient.
Rev. 10/24/2019 page 571

Not only am I doing what is required "visually inspect the septic system and surronding area", I choose to take it one step further and state that "upon inspection everything appeared to be in working order" I don't need to call an office to read a guideline, adhere to it, and summarize my findings in a report. Beyond that there is no way in hell you will ever catch me saying things of this nature without an EA, even if I have an engineer's report, I will cite the report and leave out my own opinion.

Let's see what the forum has to say...but from what I just posted you couldn't be more of a troll and completely off base on your commentary.....bye.
If you don't observe a deficiency then there is no need for an extraordinary assumption. If this was a private appraisal on a non lender report then you don't have to require an inspection. Different intended use.
 

Terrel L. Shields

Elite Member
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
May 2, 2002
Professional Status
Certified General Appraiser
State
Arkansas
Extraordinary assumptions should not be confused with ORDINARY assumptions which are spelled out in the limiting conditions. There is no need for an EA.
 

Econobot

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
Colorado
There is no controversy. Nothing to argue about. It's "black letter HUD."
Are you not capable of reading and comprehending?? You're citing conclusion and reconciliation, and I'm telling you that I've been asked to comment "by an underwriter" about the condition of septic (similar to the OP's question) and I've explained what I do. This has nothing to do with the conclusion of the report or value, it's an explanation of what I witnessed during inspection, per guidelines. Moreover, I can make an extraordinary assumption about ANYTHING in the appraisal report. It has nothing to do with the conclusion or value but it could alter the assignment results....

Here's a snippet from McKissock for you "experiened appraisers" who rely on forms and obviously struggle with reading comprehension...but know everything... What a joke.

Disclosure statement example
Continuing with the previous example, Jim finds he does not have enough room at the bottom of page 2 of the URAR form to fully disclose the extraordinary assumption. In this part of the form, he inserts, in bold type, “Please see attached addendum regarding the use of an extraordinary assumption.

Then, in the addendum, Jim’s report states:

This appraisal involves the use of an extraordinary assumption. Specifically, appraiser assumes the home is structurally sound, and that the crack in the foundation is cosmetic and not structural in nature. The use of this extraordinary assumption might have affected the assignment results.

Jim has complied with his disclosure requirements under USPAP.

Note that Jim may or may not have checked the “Subject to” box at the bottom of page 2 on the URAR form. USPAP does not instruct appraisers on how to fill out appraisal reporting forms. USPAP only requires Jim to ensure that his disclosure is clear and conspicuous.

I disclose clearly and conspicuously what I observed and that it's an EA....clearly and conspicuously.
 

Econobot

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
Colorado
If you don't observe a deficiency then there is no need for an extraordinary assumption. If this was a private appraisal on a non lender report then you don't have to require an inspection. Different intended use.
You go right ahead and put in your report, "no deficiencies were observed"....maybe also put "the roof will last for 100 years"...that's about as stupid.
 
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