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Union Time?

Time for union??


  • Total voters
    24
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vazira

Freshman Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Professional Status
Licensed Appraiser
State
California
I came across this old closed thread,
Joyce Potts; Elite Member Feb 6, 2005 Certified Residential Appraiser Florida

Adam Smith and the invisible hand

" ...every individual necessarily labours to render the annual revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the worse for the society that it was no part of it. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good."

You don't believe in market forces where individuals acting independently of each other can affect the society as a whole and whole industries? That's your AMC model, excess supply of appraisers willing to work cheap, independent of each other while other appraisers are not willing to work that cheap.

Wait and see what happens. It may be by force of government that put people into the appraisal business that will take those people out of business. Or it may be the invisible hand of appraisers acting independently of each other to maximize their own wellbeing and personal gain.

Joyce replies;
"And where does organized labor such as Unions and government regulation play into this? You can't tilt the playing field in one direction and then expect the free market forces to work as intended."

Now I ask; Looking at the need to get a voice at the table, Real data on pay, Group benefits, and may other controls like Black lists. This seems to work well for Teachers; Government employees; Electricians; Theater; Plumbers; Film; Pro-sports and we can go on and on. There are many models that can be found.
Otherwise; any discussion of fees, blacklisting AMC's or any form of grouping would be considered collision or anti-trust. This I believe would solve more problems than it creates.

As a Group our force will be greater and will help to guide the hands direction.

Understanding that this can be a hot topic; but lets try to keep the discussion an Adult conversation.
Or maybe we speak of something less controversial like Gun control or abortion?
 

jay trotta

Elite Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2004
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
Connecticut
Joyce would always come up with meaningful conversation;

Joyce replies;
"And where does organized labor such as Unions and government regulation play into this? You can't tilt the playing field in one direction and then expect the free market forces to work as intended."

Exactly where we are now,
A free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are set freely by consent between vendors and consumers, in which the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government, price-setting monopoly, or other authority. It is a result of a need being, then the need being met.
 

Meandering

Elite Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Professional Status
Real Estate Agent or Broker
State
Pennsylvania
Uhmm, not to be picky but...........

Exactly where we are now,
A free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are set freely by consent between vendors and consumers, in which the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government, price-setting monopoly, or other authority. It is a result of a need being, then the need being met.

So we are talking about the law of nature????

Is there anything about business and the purchase of any good or service which is not already impacted by a government law?

If so, don't say it, because they'll hone in on it as something they missed.

.
 

Gobears81

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Professional Status
Certified General Appraiser
State
Illinois
I didn't vote because there is no "I disagree with the fundamentals of implementing unions for real estate appraisals". The option of my superior negotiation potential as a lone wolf doesn't really capture the same essence.

Read the Jungle and you can see where unions had their place in 1900, but while I am not a die-hard free market zealot, unions do absolutely run counter to this principle. My dad saved hundreds of thousands of dollars by getting a roof on his largest property redone, and was picketed by the union guys. Yet, he got a quality job for cheaper. Nothing wrong with that and I don't think the union picketers who protested this were successful in rallying public opinion against his property. My wife's former job had a union formed for a portion of their employees and that completely changed the work dynamic for the worse. People would sleep on the job and refuse to be told what to do after being unionized- take a heavier hand with them and you get a complaint. A foundation of the union's success is the backing of the public, but as a greater percentage of the workforce becomes non-union, it is a weaker ground for them to stand on and not one that I'd like to align with. Personally, I can think of plenty of things better to do with my day than to stand in front of a property and picket them because they went with someone else.

I stopped doing much residential work around the time that the AMCs invaded that side of appraising. I agree that they have largely affected that side of the industry for the worse and have also made the client-appraiser relationship more adversarial. Improvements should be made so that the out-of-town appraisers with nothing to do don't come in and complete a 1004 for $250. Yet, think about if appraisers do unionize: are we going to picket the AMC buildings when they hire "scab appraisers"? There is a debate on how much the threat of computerized valuation models pose, but one thing that I can bet on: form a union as appraisers and that threat because much more significant.
 

Mark K

Elite Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
Indiana
I've been a member of the Teamsters and the UAW for periods in my past.

I've seen the 'good' they do.

A cold day in hell would come a lot sooner than the day I join another union.
 
D

Deleted member 130081

Guest
Based on the poll vs the post, I don't know if the OP is for or against a union. I believe organization in some form is the best course. The realtors have the NAR, which would have never let its industry fall like ours has. We have a group of people who have not organized and subsequently reap what we sow.

There are so many good things that could be accomplished if appraisers organized. I am usually a long-winded poster and the number of good things we could do, not just for ourselves but for appraisal users too, is so long I wont even attempt to scratch the surface.

I need no convincing. I have been looking into unions, but so far have concluded that what is really needed first is more interest/participation. We would need a much larger percentage of us to get on board and that starts with talking about it. I am glad this issue is coming up yet again on this forum. I am sad this forum contains about 10-20 appraisers out of thousands.
 

Meandering

Elite Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Professional Status
Real Estate Agent or Broker
State
Pennsylvania
I didn't vote because there already is a Nationwide Appraiser's Union, so I did not see any point in voting to start something that already exists, and has already worked hard for appraisers.

Read some of their articles here:
http://appraisersblogs.com/appraisal/appraisers-GLA-vs-assessors-GLA/
 

timd354

Elite Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Professional Status
Certified Residential Appraiser
State
Maryland
I came across this old closed thread,
Joyce Potts; Elite Member Feb 6, 2005 Certified Residential Appraiser Florida

Adam Smith and the invisible hand

" ...every individual necessarily labours to render the annual revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the worse for the society that it was no part of it. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good."

You don't believe in market forces where individuals acting independently of each other can affect the society as a whole and whole industries? That's your AMC model, excess supply of appraisers willing to work cheap, independent of each other while other appraisers are not willing to work that cheap.

Wait and see what happens. It may be by force of government that put people into the appraisal business that will take those people out of business. Or it may be the invisible hand of appraisers acting independently of each other to maximize their own wellbeing and personal gain.

Joyce replies;
"And where does organized labor such as Unions and government regulation play into this? You can't tilt the playing field in one direction and then expect the free market forces to work as intended."

Now I ask; Looking at the need to get a voice at the table, Real data on pay, Group benefits, and may other controls like Black lists. This seems to work well for Teachers; Government employees; Electricians; Theater; Plumbers; Film; Pro-sports and we can go on and on. There are many models that can be found.
Otherwise; any discussion of fees, blacklisting AMC's or any form of grouping would be considered collision or anti-trust. This I believe would solve more problems than it creates.

As a Group our force will be greater and will help to guide the hands direction.

Understanding that this can be a hot topic; but lets try to keep the discussion an Adult conversation.
Or maybe we speak of something less controversial like Gun control or abortion?
Unionizing appraisers, most of whom are independent business owners makes absolutely no sense. Unions are not for business owners, but are for employees, and most independent appraisers are business owners. What are they going to do, go on strike against themselves? As independent business owners, they could not collude on fees or set up a strike or boycott of any particular lender or AMC with out violating anti-trust laws.
 
D

Deleted member 134708

Guest
Unions are for pre-1900's. After that they are a redundancy. This redundancy is a negative to all, including the union workers who make $60/hour for a job worth $15. It's a negative for them as it turns them lazy and uncompetitive if the union ever goes bust.

For the rest of us, unions hurt every aspect of the USA, economy and so on.
 
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