Verifying Sales

[DMZwerg]

The listing says ABC, the agent saying "yup, it had ABC" is not verification. How could it possibly be?

Don't get a job in accounting or purchasing & receiving.

Manager sends paperwork to S&R stating they are to order 144 units. S&R orders 144 units and has paperwork stating were ordered. When received S&R dep verifies number of units shipped by counting physical units and tells the manager. The manager has verified the number ordered is the number received by talking to the same people, and he can also verify his purchase order paperwork is correct as to the number received via a call to the S&R dep.

Paperwork can be incorrect (I have seen MLS sheets that have location data indicating the property is located miles away, possibly in a different county or even miles out in the lake ... and obviously incorrect). When calling to verify the data on a listing you are verifying with the person that the information on the street is actually correct, and is pretty much the definition of verification.

From dictionary.com

Verification (noun)
1. the act of verifying.
2. the state of being verified.
3. evidence that establishes or confirms the accuracy or truth of something: We could find no verification for his fantastic claims.
4. a formal assertion of the truth of something, as by oath or affidavit.

5. the process of research, examination, etc., required to prove or establish authenticity or validity.
​

Look at #3 & #5 (bolded by me) ... both are applicable in regards to appraisers doing verification.


Speaking of the definition of verification The Dictionary of Real Estate Appraisal is silent, likely because they thought it was obvious

 

[ucbruin]

If you hear something directly from somebody else, and it is unverified, then tell somebody else it is hearsay. What you HEARD is not hearsay, what you SAID would be.
If you claim <a specific person> said something then you are witness to what they said but not what they did or did not do.

So, a realtor <a specific person> said something to you, and you record it down, you are witness to what they said. The information is used by you, the appraiser, to verify information you gathered elsewhere or have suspicions about. Example: you notice the price of properties A & B seem below normal and property C seems above normal, so you call the selling agent who confirms that property A sold for below normal because it was a short sale (but condition was typical), property B sold for below normal due to condition, and property C sold for above normal due to a highly motivated buyer (wanted that SPECIFIC property because he was relocating from another state and that property had all the very specific features he and his wife desired (location, school, acres, style, granite countertops, and a insulated shop that is grandfathered non-conforming in that area). You, the appraiser, has just VERIFIED the differences in prices you had already noted. Or you verified type & conditions of sale indicated in the recorder of deeds office (& available online), or from MLS, etc.

Oral hearsay (what one person tells another about a third person) is the same as written hearsay.

Got this off the internet (so I'm not completely vouching for it-"legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/hearsay"). Assuming the above statement is a correct legal definition of Hearsay then it seems that what agents tell appraisers is Hearsay. Example. Person #1 is the agent; Person #2 is the appraiser; Person #3 is either the seller or buyer. So buyer/seller motivations provided by the agents should be considered Hearsay and therefore "verified" with the buyer and/or seller. Again, the definition maybe incorrect.

 

[Eli]

If you note visible indications of something like prior flooding/drainage problems or something similar to that situation, neighbors are a great source of info. Of course realtors would be to. I've had neighbors tell me the history of a property. Nosey neighbors.

 

[ucbruin]

Don't get a job in accounting or purchasing & receiving.

Manager sends paperwork to S&R stating they are to order 144 units. S&R orders 144 units and has paperwork stating were ordered. When received S&R dep verifies number of units shipped by counting physical units and tells the manager. The manager has verified the number ordered is the number received by talking to the same people, and he can also verify his purchase order paperwork is correct as to the number received via a call to the S&R dep.

Paperwork can be incorrect (I have seen MLS sheets that have location data indicating the property is located miles away, possibly in a different county or even miles out in the lake ... and obviously incorrect). When calling to verify the data on a listing you are verifying with the person that the information on the street is actually correct, and is pretty much the definition of verification.

From dictionary.com

Verification (noun)
1. the act of verifying.
2. the state of being verified.
3. evidence that establishes or confirms the accuracy or truth of something: We could find no verification for his fantastic claims.
4. a formal assertion of the truth of something, as by oath or affidavit.

5. the process of research, examination, etc., required to prove or establish authenticity or validity.
​

Look at #3 & #5 (bolded by me) ... both are applicable in regards to appraisers doing verification.


Speaking of the definition of verification The Dictionary of Real Estate Appraisal is silent, likely because they thought it was obvious

That's a good example for tangible items. But how do you "verify" intangible items as buyer/seller motivations without speak to them directly?

 

[DTB]

From dictionary.com

Verification (noun)
B]3.[/B] evidence that establishes or confirms the accuracy or truth of something: We could find no verification for his fantastic claims.

5. the process of research, examination, etc., required to prove or establish authenticity or validity.
​

Look at #3 & #5 (bolded by me) ... both are applicable in regards to appraisers doing verification.


Speaking of the definition of verification The Dictionary of Real Estate Appraisal is silent, likely because they thought it was obvious

Your paper chain of shipping and receiving is quite different from an appraiser interviewing an agent about the veracity of his listing information. You have nothing to substantiate the new information, thus it is not verification of anything.

Bolded 3 & 5.

You have no evidence from asking the agent anything. The agent is either adding no new information to the information he has already given you (via an MLS listing) or adding new information that he witheld from you (via an MLS listing).

You've not proven or given authenticity to it because of whom you interviewed, you need a different source for verification.

Why is this rattling around in my head in this thread?

"Have I Reached The Party to Whom I Am Speaking?" - Lily Tomlin as Ernestine - YouTube

Again, this is not to malign anyone's practices but is a caveat to what actually is or isn't being accomplished.

 

[Delta85]

If you hear something directly from somebody else, and it is unverified, then tell somebody else it is hearsay. What you HEARD is not hearsay, what you SAID would be.
If you claim <a specific person> said something then you are witness to what they said but not what they did or did not do.

I'm thinking unless you see something with your own eyes it's hearsay. A realtor can post an MLS listing and say a property is in great condition. We can then call that realtor and he might say "yes it was in great condition." But was it really? For the purposes of our reports this is acceptable but it's still hearsay IMO. The realtor could be lying or their definition of "great condition" may be much different than the appraisers.

Someone can go to the police and lie and say they saw me selling drugs out of my home OR they can go to the police and tell the police truthfully that they saw me selling drugs out of my home and the information is treated the same by police ( as hearsay) till THEY can verify this with evidence (their own eyes).

 

[DMZwerg]

You have no evidence from asking the agent anything. The agent is either adding new information to the information he has already given you (via an MLS listing) or adding new information that he witheld from you (via an MLS listing).

The MLS listing is the DATA source
The agent is the VERIFICATION
... aka you are VERIFYING the sheet is consistent with what the agent observed.
The selling agent does not fill out the MLS sheet, that is done by the listing broker's office (and may or may not be done by the listing agent).
When verifying the data on the MLS listing you accomplish three things: verifying there were no mitsakes, , and doing so with one who was inside the property in person as well as witness to the transaction.
Why is it so hard for some to understand that the MLS sheet is not necessarily what either agent witnessed in person and that one of the two often had no input into it whatsoever?

I'm thinking unless you see something with your own eyes it's hearsay. A realtor can post an MLS listing and say a property is in great condition. We can then call that realtor and he might say "yes it was in great condition." But was it really? For the purposes of our reports this is acceptable but it's still hearsay IMO. The realtor could be lying or their definition of "great condition" may be much different than the appraisers.

Verification source: listing agent #iou

Who said the information is or isn't true? I found information here, and listing agent # iou stated it was true, thus I have verified the information with listing agent #iou. It is not hearsay because i am not saying it is true, I am saying that I heard #iou state (to me) that it was true. It could be false, but if I have done my due diligence in verifying it then it is as reliable as possible, and thus my tail should be covered. Even if I got sworn affidavits from all concerned it could still be false.

Verification is not about the truth, but in doing what when can to make sure the information is as reliable as possible. Further, for GSEs it is required.

 

[ucbruin]

The MLS listing is the DATA source
The agent is the VERIFICATION
... aka you are VERIFYING the sheet is consistent with what the agent observed.
The selling agent does not fill out the MLS sheet, that is done by the listing broker's office (and may or may not be done by the listing agent).
When verifying the data on the MLS listing you accomplish three things: verifying there were no mitsakes, , and doing so with one who was inside the property in person as well as witness to the transaction.
Why is it so hard for some to understand that the MLS sheet is not necessarily what either agent witnessed in person and that one of the two often had no input into it whatsoever?




Verification source: listing agent #iou

Who said the information is or isn't true? I found information here, and listing agent # iou stated it was true, thus I have verified the information with listing agent #iou. It is not hearsay because i am not saying it is true, I am saying that I heard #iou state (to me) that it was true. It could be false, but if I have done my due diligence in verifying it then it is as reliable as possible, and thus my tail should be covered. Even if I got sworn affidavits from all concerned it could still be false.

Verification is not about the truth, but in doing what when can to make sure the information is as reliable as possible. Further, for GSEs it is required.

"Who said the information is or isn't true?", "It is not hearsay because i am not saying it is true, I am saying that I heard", It could be false, but if I have done my due diligence in verifying it then it is as reliable as possible, and thus my tail should be covered. Even if I got sworn affidavits from all concerned it could still be false. Verification is not about the truth, but in doing what when can to make sure the information is as reliable as possible. Further, for GSEs it is required.

RG, this post maybe the best or closest explanation regarding my position when it comes to rigid positions. It seems that some appraisers "verify" not to get the truth or correct facts but rather are just going through the motions to CYA. Who cares if the information is not true? Would this be considered a misleading report? Would an appraiser who held the position that "I don't care if the data I place in my report is true or false, I just needed to "verify" the sale because GSE required it and I want to be sure to CMA" be considered negligent in your opinion?

 

[ucbruin]

The MLS listing is the DATA source
The agent is the VERIFICATION
... aka you are VERIFYING the sheet is consistent with what the agent observed.
The selling agent does not fill out the MLS sheet, that is done by the listing broker's office (and may or may not be done by the listing agent).
When verifying the data on the MLS listing you accomplish three things: verifying there were no mitsakes, , and doing so with one who was inside the property in person as well as witness to the transaction.
Why is it so hard for some to understand that the MLS sheet is not necessarily what either agent witnessed in person and that one of the two often had no input into it whatsoever?




Verification source: listing agent #iou

Who said the information is or isn't true? I found information here, and listing agent # iou stated it was true, thus I have verified the information with listing agent #iou. It is not hearsay because i am not saying it is true, I am saying that I heard #iou state (to me) that it was true. It could be false, but if I have done my due diligence in verifying it then it is as reliable as possible, and thus my tail should be covered. Even if I got sworn affidavits from all concerned it could still be false.

Verification is not about the truth, but in doing what when can to make sure the information is as reliable as possible. Further, for GSEs it is required.

Got this off the internet (so I'm not completely vouching for it-"legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/hearsay"). Assuming the above statement is a correct legal definition of Hearsay then it seems that what agents tell appraisers is Hearsay. Example. Person #1 is the agent; Person #2 is the appraiser; Person #3 is either the seller or buyer. So buyer/seller motivations provided by the agents should be considered Hearsay and therefore "verified" with the buyer and/or seller. Again, the definition maybe incorrect.

Maybe you should read this again. Hearsay has nothing to do with anything specific. It is the action-the agent telling you about the seller that you can't verify is hearsay. The agent telling you, over the phone, that there is buried treasure in the basement is hearsay.

 

[Delta85]

Verification source: listing agent #iou

Who said the information is or isn't true? I found information here, and listing agent # iou stated it was true, thus I have verified the information with listing agent #iou. It is not hearsay because i am not saying it is true, I am saying that I heard #iou state (to me) that it was true. It could be false, but if I have done my due diligence in verifying it then it is as reliable as possible, and thus my tail should be covered. Even if I got sworn affidavits from all concerned it could still be false.

Verification is not about the truth, but in doing what when can to make sure the information is as reliable as possible. Further, for GSEs it is required.

I agree that the process is good enough for our purposes but I still believe it's hearsay. Somebody is making a claim in writing (MLS) and verbally (when we call that person to verify) but in the end we can not state unequivocally that what they wrote and said is true. Not unless we see it for ourselves.