Where Do You Think "geographic Competency" Begins And Ends?

[Eli]

George, do you want to go to jail with them? Lol

 

[J Grant]

I think too many of us are afraid to think deeply and critically about these things because we really don't want to know the answers. "Competence", whether geographic or otherwise, is a term which defies description, other than "I know it when I see it", or more often, when I don't see it.

Developing any legitimate kind of training to help people acquire competence requires defining it first. This is an area in which our profession has long struggled. The apprenticeship system that many of us came up in had a lot of benefits, but it had the drawback of only being as good as the master. Today's environment isn't well suited for this system, especially on the residential side, but commercial as well.

We need to be asking these questions and discussing them without probing for ulterior motives or hidden agendas.

Yes it is good to discuss these issues- and where it can lead in apprising.

Technology allows people to expand out of their immediate area. Now any moron can get on the internet and post dribble to people everywhere- isn't that amazing? Now overseas hackers can steal your identity and rob your accounts with a click. Isn't that great? Soon incompetent appraisers will be able to do fast cheap work anywhere including areas they know zero about, displacing local appraisers.

The point is, technology brings many benefits and changes, both positive and negative. Ultimately it comes back to people themselves and their ethics . Technology allows good ideas and ideals to spread as rapidly and widely as bad ideas and ideals.

Appraisal is subject to that same dynamic. Dropping geo competency will allow good appraisers to expand their area of coverage, and bad appraisers to expand their area of coverage. Think about what that means for millions of lender appraisals...and that the "bad" appraisers often are those who can't judge their own competence geo or otherwise about what assignments to accept,and might get even greater volume share of work if they are let loose across greater areas if they charge cheaper fees.

So far what I have seen stakeholder driven changes in appraisal seem to result in rewarding the lowest common denominator. If that were not the case I would have a different viewpoint.

 

[George Hatch]

It would have been more transparent then, given the content of these last two posts ( which is what I suspected was behind this poll), is that this poll was not just a casual or intellectual debate about geo competence, it is an exploration to explore removing geo competence as a work standard or requirement in appraisal, just as it has been done for a segment of reviewing- We see national level out of area reviewers asking for idiot stips and another comp for no valid reason from local appraisers , or else doing mindless rote compliance QC checks.

I could tell from the way it was struct ed this poll was not just a theoretical debate, it is a groundwork for what is expressed in post #271 and 272, about what clients want, now that technology allows it - appraising across wide areas, as out of area as reviewers do now. The last 2 posts mention efficiency ,how clients do not owe us anything and we have to adapt to what they want etc. It would have been forth coming if all this had been stated when poll was put forth. .

A credibility for making a change to convince regulators and agencies that it is low risk, they need an assurance from appraisers for at least window dressing .. A poll with appraisers stating no geo competence needed provides that. .

Not every appraisers responded no geo competence needed and among those did, perhaps some were over confident about their abilities. But that won't matter, the answers are in.

Appraisers also answered based on a set of assumptions about personal inspection and plenty of time/resources, it is naive to think that will be the case for fast paced lender work/ cheap AMC work.

Bifurcated appraisals allows appraisers to work from a desk with a local RE agent/other doing the inspection, that and desktop no inspect appraisals would greatly expand what any one appraiser, particularity a staff appraiser could do if possible to do so in much wider areas or across states. appraiser do it from desk while a local RE agent does the inspection for them. And then there is sending the cheap fee bid winder 100 miles away ...I can't see dropping geo competence leading to better practice, just cheaper or faster practice ( their favorite buzzword for it is efficiency.

I used the poll - with the extremes - as a means of prompting people to *think about* and choose where they thought their capabilities began and ended. If everyone had followed the instructions and marked every box that appplied to their situation instead of some people only marking their upper limit we'd probably have seen that there may only be about 70 individuals who participated in it. Maybe not even that many.

I can tell you one thing, if I was working as an undercover bot I'm smart enough to have chosen to do it subtly enough that neither you nor Marion would have been able to see it. I also would never have addressed Marion's accusation directly with an "I have nothing to hide". Danny would have never stuck his nose in this thread. And then all you two morons would have had would have been your feelz.

And the outcome would have been exactly the same, except that you'd have to address the issue on its merits instead of attempting to create a UFO report.

IRL I haven't done anything differently in this thread than I've ever done on this forum. This abstracts vs fee dispute I've been having with you two isn't any different now than it's ever been.

You two are both lucky Santora isn't here anymore. He was a lot more direct than I am about returning the levels of hostility he got from people. And yes, I used to collaborate offline with him in a lot of brainstorming, too. Always in furtherance of our respective ideals.

 

[djd09]

Talked to a local business owner last week, he believes three major employers are relocating. Two from the same city. Wonder if that is in the databases.

 

[J Grant]

George, I am not hostile with you on any regular basis and in fact like ( and respect) a lot of your posts. But you do post views that tend to support the lowest common denominator, whether it is standards or fees. I do think in this particular case you were not forthcoming about this poll and I' ve stated why. I don't blame you for being offended at me saying that, I'd feel the same in your place. Whether my viewpoint is deserved or not people can decide for themselves.

 

[George Hatch]

People will either believe I have some hidden agenda or they won't. Talk is cheap. All anyone can do is judge me by my actions over time.

USPAP is a minimum standard. One of the primary themes in the Instructor course is that we need to refrain from perpetuating a lot of the mythology and extras into it that don't exist. The same is true for qualifications; regardless of what's best for your interests, it only takes a (real) 12th grade vocabulary and writing skills to develop and report a URAR that's sufficient for its intended use. As evidenced by the many appraisals that have been completed over many years by many HS grads and others with less than 4yr degrees.

I observe and report without regard for my clients' personal interests every day. That I would be capable of exercising a similar level of compartmentalization in my discussion of these topics with my peers is not only consistent with what I do in my day job it's also consistent with what YOU are supposed to do in your day job, and you should be capable of recognizing that kind of conduct for what it is.

IMO, what's in your best interests is to make an informed decision based on the situation as it actually exists, not necessarily based on what you think it should be if only people "were better than that".

 

[J Grant]

IMO, what's in your best interests is to make an informed decision based on the situation as it actually exists, not necessarily based on what you think it should be if only people "were better than that".

That is always your argument for rationalizing a change from what was better, to a lower level which once entrenched, becomes the new (worse) normal of what exists now

What did exist was a college degree requirement and a longer training period required, recently both were changed to what exists now.

I don't think your agenda is hidden so much as obfuscated in long verbiage with logic that circles back on itself.

 

[Meandering]

I used the poll - with the extremes - as a means of prompting people to *think about* and choose where they thought their capabilities began and ended. If everyone had followed the instructions and marked every box that appplied to their situation instead of some people only marking their upper limit we'd probably have seen that there may only be about 70 individuals who participated in it. Maybe not even that many.

I can tell you one thing, if I was working as an undercover bot I'm smart enough to have chosen to do it subtly enough that neither you nor Marion would have been able to see it. I also would never have addressed Marion's accusation directly with an "I have nothing to hide". Danny would have never stuck his nose in this thread. And then all you two morons would have had would have been your feelz.

And the outcome would have been exactly the same, except that you'd have to address the issue on its merits instead of attempting to create a UFO report.

IRL I haven't done anything differently in this thread than I've ever done on this forum. This abstracts vs fee dispute I've been having with you two isn't any different now than it's ever been.

You two are both lucky Santora isn't here anymore. He was a lot more direct than I am about returning the levels of hostility he got from people. And yes, I used to collaborate offline with him in a lot of brainstorming, too. Always in furtherance of our respective ideals.

Sorry you're not technologically smart enough to hide your motives, and Danny is too narcissistic to stay out of his own way,

But the entire thing is a straw argument and you know it.

AMCs have limited appraiser assignments to within X miles of appraiser's ASB address, that residential appraisers could only "expand their competency" by studying "Green" or "Going Commercial".

Sorry your feelings are hurt by not outsmarting two women.

But you know what CAN would have told you.

You lay down with dogs...................

.

 

[Eli]

People will either believe I have some hidden agenda or they won't. Talk is cheap. All anyone can do is judge me by my actions over time.

USPAP is a minimum standard. One of the primary themes in the Instructor course is that we need to refrain from perpetuating a lot of the mythology and extras into it that don't exist. The same is true for qualifications; regardless of what's best for your interests, it only takes a (real) 12th grade vocabulary and writing skills to develop and report a URAR that's sufficient for its intended use. As evidenced by the many appraisals that have been completed over many years by many HS grads and others with less than 4yr degrees.

I observe and report without regard for my clients' personal interests every day. That I would be capable of exercising a similar level of compartmentalization in my discussion of these topics with my peers is not only consistent with what I do in my day job it's also consistent with what YOU are supposed to do in your day job, and you should be capable of recognizing that kind of conduct for what it is.

IMO, what's in your best interests is to make an informed decision based on the situation as it actually exists, not necessarily based on what you think it should be if only people "were better than that".

How do you feel about fastest and cheapest? You have preached experience. If a client should be in jail? Or out of business due to being bankrupt? And they promote fastest and cheapest?

Your technology arguments are lame because you know all the multitude of market forces that impact market value. In my market, it can happen quickly and over very short distances.

I know where you and Danny are going. There are legal ramifications as well. Danny knows that in Tennessee. I can give you the Tennessee appraiser coalition as a source for advice.

 

[George Hatch]

IMO, what's in your best interests is to make an informed decision based on the situation as it actually exists, not necessarily based on what you think it should be if only people "were better than that".

That is always your argument for rationalizing a change from what was better, to a lower level which once entrenched, becomes the new (worse) normal of what exists now

What did exist was a college degree requirement and a longer training period required, recently both were changed to what exists now.

I don't think your agenda is hidden so much as obfuscated in long verbiage with logic that circles back on itself.

I supported the interim increase of a handful of specific academic courses for CRs because I thought it made some sense. I never supported any decrease in experience requirements. I thought the subsequent bump to the 4yr degree was excessive and was done without any real analysis or consideration.

IMO, most of the problems attributed to "inadequately educated" are really occupational-specific and would have been more appropriately addressed in our QE programs than in a scattershot academic requirement that doesn't touch appraisal performance.

So, never actually "less", but "different and more specific to what we do".