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USPAP violations? neighborhood boundaries

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To muddle the water even more, FHA uses the following: Neighborhood Name • Enter the name of the subdivision, if applicable, or the commonly known local neighborhood designation. If the subject property is in a planned unit development, provide the name of the development
Nice catch Dog and USPAP101

Its like **** as the Supreme Court defined it, "donno how to define it,but I know it when I see it."

To me a neighborhood has some element of socio-economic conditions. I don't see $500,000 McMansions in a secluded area as being "comparable" or "complimentary" with a nearby area that was shotgun pre-war houses, remodeled into slightly larger homes of mixed condition. But that falls apart as a definition when you have a real mix of property like in a small town. The small town may have a number of old stately homes of 3000 SF or more, and no small number of equally old but less than 1000 SF houses, and sprinkled in the surrounding area are subdivisions ranging in age from 60 years to 60 days old... The Suburban 'neighborhood' could end up in a donut shape, or a half-moon...or strip along a highway. Neighborhood is ill-defined and illusive in so so many ways.
 
I contend that it is better to identify where any subject property fits, lower, middle, or upper and comment on the range of value within those areas rather than the entire neighborhood, and to select sales that are within the range where the subject is located.

I figure distressed sales are not fair market transactions and do not apply to market value depending on how you define it, so those are gone. Beyond that arguments could be made for defining NBHD ones one section, the other, or both, depending on the similarity and how the appraiser chooses to define "neighborhood".

Neighborhood usually notes some degree of comparability, at least in use, but also in age, style, & so forth. It is well possible for commercial & residential NBHDs to overlap, and certain high-end properties can also be part of a much larger, extended NBHD of similar properties that overlap other properties, such as hobby-farms & "gentleman's estates" overlapping various other agricultural & residential areas. The "single family neighborhood values" would, in cases of hobby farms, potentially not include smaller lot SFRs, lakefront properties, or other residential uses. Therefore in an area where gentrification is occurring and the older properties are typically "interim use" the "interim use" and "true highest and best use" would probably technically be two separate neighborhoods when the striations are that well defined, yet in other cases be part of a less homogeneous neighborhood including a wider variety.

Man, I get long-winded when I am tired ;)
 
To me a neighborhood has some element of socio-economic conditions. I don't see $500,000 McMansions in a secluded area as being "comparable" or "complimentary" with a nearby area that was shotgun pre-war houses, remodeled into slightly larger homes of mixed condition.

Yep, a number of non-complimentary uses could be stratified across the same area, even if "all" are "technically residential" (once land acres gets high enough residential & agricultural usage often crosses each other, for instance).


But that falls apart as a definition when you have a real mix of property like in a small town. The small town may have a number of old stately homes of 3000 SF or more, and no small number of equally old but less than 1000 SF houses, and sprinkled in the surrounding area are subdivisions ranging in age from 60 years to 60 days old...

Most small towns and highly not homogeneous areas are still all complimentary in usage (or mostly so), but as zoning creeps in and vast tracts of land end up being turned into large homogeneous tracts you start seeing groups of neighborhoods, at least until properties gentrify sufficiently.
That is my experience with cities, suburban, semi-rural and rural areas :icon_mrgreen:
 
I would lean towards all, many, some, or several of the projects and subdivisions being in the same neighborhood. But my answer is "That depends!"


Same here. I did an even more recent appraisal in another neighborhood that has homes ranging from 50-90 years old. But, a "new" neighborhood, at least in my opinion, has sprung up with tear downs and rebuild of new construction in that same name place we would call a neighborhood. There were 8 of the older homes, and 9 of the new construction spot built homes in the same "neighborhood". I used the data for the new homes as my subject was a newly built home.

About time for Fannie to rethink what a neighborhood is. I believe the more appropriate term should be market area.
 
About time for Fannie to rethink what a neighborhood is. I believe the more appropriate term should be market area.

I believe the AI Dictionary hits the nail on the head:
Neighborhood
A group of complementary land uses; a congruous grouping of inhabitants, buildings, or business enterprises.

Notice I bolded the "s" in uses. There are multiple land uses in a neighborhood.
A subdivision really isn't a neighborhood as defined in the AI dictionary, because it has a singular use: Single Family (or condo if in a condo complex, etc...)

A neighborhood is the area you live, eat, work and play. That is why you live where you live. You don't JUST live there because you like your house. You could find a similar house nearly any where in your county, state or the whole country, but NOT a house like yours surrounded by the same shopping facilities, boutiques, your favorite restaurant, ocean view or local sports team.

It is all of these additional elements that cause neighborhoods to change:
The grocery stores get old, a business closes down, a new Home Depot or WalMart super center opens up 10 miles up the road, etc... When these changes occur, peoples motivation to live in an area change. It is the area that drives the market as much as the sticks and bricks of the house.

The real confusion, is appraisers have made the words "neighborhood" and "subdivision" synonymous because of the expectations of underwriters and brow beating of "one mile radius" in comp selection. Maybe Fannie/Freddie will wake up and find that their attempt to standardized an infungible market into a perfect one mile circle is part of the reason everything is so convoluted.

Proper neighborhood identification is more macro than many have been taught or lead to believe. This is the primary dysfunctional disconnect in this entire market trend analysis debacle. :new_smile-l:
 
I believe the AI Dictionary hits the nail on the head:
Quote:
Neighborhood
A group of complementary land uses; a congruous grouping of inhabitants, buildings, or business enterprises.
Notice I bolded the "s" in uses. There are multiple land uses in a neighborhood.
A subdivision really isn't a neighborhood as defined in the AI dictionary, because it has a singular use: Single Family (or condo if in a condo complex, etc...)

A neighborhood is the area you live, eat, work and play. That is why you live where you live. You don't JUST live there because you like your house. You could find a similar house nearly any where in your county, state or the whole country, but NOT a house like yours surrounded by the same shopping facilities, boutiques, your favorite restaurant, ocean view or local sports team.

It is all of these additional elements that cause neighborhoods to change:
The grocery stores get old, a business closes down, a new Home Depot or WalMart super center opens up 10 miles up the road, etc... When these changes occur, peoples motivation to live in an area change. It is the area that drives the market as much as the sticks and bricks of the house.

Also note the term "congruous" in the definition.
congruous - exhibiting harmony of parts; appropriate or fitting

That coal plant (or nuke plant) down the road is not necessarily part of a residential neighborhood as it generally is not harmonious, appropriate, or fitting with residential properties. It generally is with industrial (coal) or possibly agricultural (nuke). In general industrial areas are not congruous with SF residential, thus border areas tend to be commercial, high density residential, or other such more transitional usage and thus create separate potentially congruous neighborhoods that may overlap in areas.

That being said, and fully comprehending that in older, more established areas commercial or agricultural usage could well be congruous with SFR usage as well as 2FR and other forms of residential use there are also times when 2 different forms of the same usage are NOT congruous, which could be the result of new development creating a different H&BU for the area and thus disharmony as properties are converted from one form to another. For example, along lakefronts small cabins are often "teardowns" once the area hits a certain density of larger lakefront properties and a lack of other vacant parcels exist. As the H&BU is to remove the functionally inadequate property such properties are no longer in harmony with the rest of the neighborhood. Other examples are "eyesores" and such. Properties could start off in harmony but over time, style changes (particularly township determined) or due to neglect become incongruous and thus not part of the neighborhood based on the second part of the definition.

Food for thought :)


Proper neighborhood identification is more macro than many have been taught or lead to believe. This is the primary dysfunctional disconnect in this entire market trend analysis debacle. :new_smile-l:

I see neighborhood borders where there is sudden change. I can rattle off a number of these in SE WI (Milwaukee, Racine, etc) but a couple of the most pronounced are Rubberville in Racine (includes SF homes but is primarily SxS duplexes of a specific age and usually similar ownership characteristics), and the Lannon stone neighborhoods in Milwaukee near Capital Dr & Sherman Boulevard. In both cases the sudden changes typically create value changes that are not definable except by neighborhood change. There are generally border areas that overlap the two neighborhoods (ex: the Capitol Dr corridor is part of one on one side, part of another to the other, but is also uniquely its own neighborhood for properties located directly on Capitol Dr and comparables are within a block or two or on other major arterials).

Knowing the market areas helps greatly in identifying neighborhoods. In the case of Capital Dr one neighborhood could well include the south side of Capital and another could include the north side, including in both cases the commercial properties along that side, but for SFR on Capitol itself the neighborhood is different from either or the other two (slight overlap of both) no matter which side it is on.

So "neighborhood" could well be much larger, or in some cases much more specific, that what most appraisers would think of. The more complex the property the wider the area but potentially the more specific the definition depending on ow it is worded. For example, a bank can be part of a local neighborhood but it could also be apart from a local neighborhood depending on the need for a local bank in that area.

OK, figure I rambled enough ;)

:peace:
 
I believe the AI Dictionary hits the nail on the head

I thought so too.:)
But read posts #26-#34 and you'll see sometimes (apparently) the hammer misses the nail and hits thumbs. :shrug:
 
"Over analysis Paralysis"

Remember "Intended User" and "Intended Use". It keeps things simple.

At the end of the day, the intended user is the one who engaged you to make a loan, which is also the intended use (for mortgage appraisals). Since we are talking about the 1004MC, I have assumed that position.

What the mortgage client in this case is ultimately seeking is information to make a sound lending decision.

They want to know the current value of the collateral and the health of the market around the collateral.

The best way to determine the health of the market surrounding it, is to study what influences are in the market. The Nuclear power plant has an effect on the subject, as it does all the other competing homes of relatively equal distance from the power plant, as does the Super Duper shopping center or school everyone wants to shop at or attend.

We've got to stop kidding ourselves that only the properties that reside on the same street are the only ones effecting a buyers decision.

I GUARANTEE that when a potential buyer gets in their car to find a home, they pick an area, and a price range that they can afford, and start choosing the best bang for their buck within that geographical area.

The area is comprised of and constantly changes, once other positive or negative outside influences changes. It is NOT just the houses. It is the ownership interest in that home and what AREA that home sits in.

If we are going to properly identify "probable value" then we should "probably" begin to think more like buyers and a lot less like theoretical masters of the universe.

The current processes are outdated and continue to fail. I don't think that appraisers are bad, I believe the techniques are flawed.

My humble opinion. I can feel my seat heating up already for the flaming I am about to endure...:new_multi:
 
D'oh!

:new_all_coholic:
 
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The best way to determine the health of the market surrounding it, is to study what influences are in the market. The Nuclear power plant has an effect on the subject, as it does all the other competing homes of relatively equal distance from the power plant, as does the Super Duper shopping center or school everyone wants to shop at or attend.

So, you are saying that if there is an external obsolescence affect from a nuke plant then if the subject is within that affect the nuke plant would be part of the buyers decision, and this influence would in part determine a neighborhood. So if the subject is NOT within the area affected by the nuke plant does it not also stand to reason that there is also a neighborhood border that does NOT include the nuke plant even though the neighborhoods could potentially overlap?


I GUARANTEE that when a potential buyer gets in their car to find a home, they pick an area, and a price range that they can afford, and start choosing the best bang for their buck within that geographical area.

Let us go back to the example above by a different poster where there appears to be 3 distinct sub-markets: REO, older, and newer. Looking from the standpoint of a potential buyer the there would not typically be a consideration between one of the substantially newer or substantially older properties as a typical buyer heading in would already know what is or isn't in their price range, thus the effective neighborhoods again are different at least until such time has elapsed that there is a range & progression of sizes, styles & ages merging them into a more generic whole.

Think about cheese. When presented with only two vastly different options (say, hard cheddar & string cheese) they are very distinct & separate, but when presented with an array of options (mild cheddar, fresh cheddar, farmer cheese, cheese curds, mozzerella, limburgher, etc, etc, etc) then they are all just "cheese" and move from being separate & distinct into the realm of a congruous whole.

In other words there is a reason neighborhood businesses are referred to as neighborhood businesses and businesses in a mega shopping mall are generally not referred to as a "neighborhood business" from a residential standpoint (from a commercial standpoint they ARE their own neighborhood).



My humble opinion. I can feel my seat heating up already for the flaming I am about to endure...:new_multi:

Naw, not a flame but a friendly discussion on what may or may nor be congruous. :icon_mrgreen:
:laugh:
 
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